Slips into third
- Thread starter whiner
- Start date
Welcome!
By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.
JDSfastGN
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2001
- Messages
- 3,506
What is the history of the transmission? Is it bone stock? rebuilt? shift kit etc....? Tightening the TV a couple of notches may help prolong the tranny life but most likely once the clutches have slipped they have developed a glaze and/or hotspotted the steels. You can try and overfill the tranny by 1/2-1 quart to see if its a cavitation issue as well. It will probably need to be rebuilt and have a proper calibration kit installed and maybe more depending on current and future power levels
williamsGN
'Horse sneeze' addict
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2007
- Messages
- 2,122
That seems to be a common problem. Mine is doing that right now, it is at Culhane's transmission in Lake Elsinore for a rebuild.
David Husek
Turbo Buick Performance
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2007
- Messages
- 911
This is a comon problem that I fixed back in the 1992, but many builders are still fighting with this problem today. It is a very simple fix, but it can only be cured by a proper rebuild, no recalibration kit can cure this problem as the valve body needs to remain stock for the trans to work properly. Any questions, please feel free to call
Stock calibration will work for your application,if the engine is stock.However once the power is bumped up its either replace frictions on a regular basis with stock calibrations,revise calibrations and break hard parts,or revise calibrations and use billet parts = problem solved.You are in good hands with Steve Kulhane.
David Husek
Turbo Buick Performance
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2007
- Messages
- 911
As you have read and will find, every builder has there own opinion and recipe, and yes these are only opinions. Some recipes will work, some will not. None of us will agree with each other. Do your homework….. Speak to every builder and get an education on this subject.
I'll agree with Chris (and Lonnie Diers of Extreme Automatics, Mike Ridings, Brian '"bison", and several other professional builders who specialize in 200-4Rs) that the trans needs to be recalibrated to fix the weak third gear issue common to all stock 200-4Rs.
There are three ways to increase the capacity of a clutch.
Increase the apply area,
increase the apply pressure,
or increase the friction area.
or any combination of the above.
There are different theories as to what works and what doesn't but MOST of the builders who specialize in 200-4Rs agree that just increasing the friction area and pressure isn't enough and that increasing the friction area may be detrimental.
It depends on the combo.
There are three ways to increase the capacity of a clutch.
Increase the apply area,
increase the apply pressure,
or increase the friction area.
or any combination of the above.
There are different theories as to what works and what doesn't but MOST of the builders who specialize in 200-4Rs agree that just increasing the friction area and pressure isn't enough and that increasing the friction area may be detrimental.
It depends on the combo.
Reducing leakage/cross leakage comes to mind too. There several possible reasons as to why a 2-3 flare could be there. There is no one fix that will work everytime since there could be more than one reason why it flares. It has to do with the shift timing.
Something I realized long ago about the clutch exhaust being lower than the feed point comes to mind.These circumstances cause the circuit to fill with air on clutch retract or un apply and this air must be removed,or squeezed out on re apply.Besides that it corrects third gear upshift timing ,the blocked control valve keeps the circuit partially full on re apply.Some designs actually bleed oil into circuits that are not used until upshifts occur as to remove the air.The trick is to bleed out a slight amount more than that which is orificed in.Look at toyota 540 and 4l80e hydraulic diagrams.
So I adjusted the TV cable and what a difference that makes. Transmission
up shifts and down shift much better. I have it set almost where I want it.
The question I have is when it is adjusted it will keep the throttle from
fully opening. How do I adjust the cable and still allow the throttle to fully
open?
up shifts and down shift much better. I have it set almost where I want it.
The question I have is when it is adjusted it will keep the throttle from
fully opening. How do I adjust the cable and still allow the throttle to fully
open?
You are only changing the part throttle TV when over adjusting. The valve will bottom out before WOT so you have only increased the pressures at all throttle angles till it bottoms. You may experience 2nd starts when hot when its over adjusted. The fix is to put in a recalibration kit and increase the base pressure and the pressure rise rate. If you have a flare you may need other mods done to correct it
Ive been trying to get my trans to shift properly into third gear for the past 20 years. Increasing the apply area never worked. Never better/sometimes worse.
Increasing the friction area never worked. Just burned more clutches.
Canging the calibration never worked. Never better/never worse.
Changing the pressure never worked. Never better/never worse.
Three years ago my third gear shift problem was solved by Bruce at PTS Extreme.
The apply area wasn't increased.
The pressure wasn't increased. I already did that. Didn't help.
The friction area wasn't increased.
Calibration wasn't changed. Already tried many. Didn't help.
One very simple thing was changed As Dave Husek said
Because of a bad pump my good third gear shift went away.
New pump -good shift returned.
Pump started whining so I put another new one on.
Didn't solve problem because of a mistake I had made.
I wasn't aware of the mistake I had made so I called Dave Husek.
I set up third gear with Daves instruction and discovered my mistake.
My third gear is awesome.
None of the things above where done.
I have a stock valve body in every way.
I have the stock seperator plate with a slightly larger third gear feed hole and still use the check ball for the third accumulator.
I now know extra clutches aren't needed nor do they hurt.
I don't care about opinions only what works.
It seems as if many on this site want to pretend Dave Husek doesn't exist when in fact he's been successfuly building these transmissions longer than anyone.
Maybe we should just call Dave a liar.
That's what you do when you ignore or discount what he says.
What he wrote above is all true .I know because my trans is a real life example,not an opinion or concensus.
I don't believe Dave is right, he simply is.
The facts aren't dependent on opinions or votes.
They simply are the facts.
Call Dave Husek if you want the best shifting longest lasting 200-4R ever.
JDSfastGN
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2001
- Messages
- 3,506
That was a hell of a plug for David... I would gladly put one of my trannies up against Davids and I feel confident in what I do. By stating what you say, you are being hypocritical and calling every other builder here a liar or at the least insulting our abilities to a degree. If Davids mods for the 3rd gear work... fantastic.... Share them with us... but guess what... my trannies work as well and have fantastic 3rd gears. There are many different opionions on what works. Every other builder in here can get a 200 to handle great power along with a great 2-3 shift. Most in here have openly shared what they do for good clean 2-3 that will with hold 600+ hp. I would love to know what David does and have nothing at all against him. Please enlighten me...
I know that Bruce doesn't use stock pressures or stock VB calibration. I've had his kit and compared it to others.
So saying Bruce fixed your third gear but the pressure was stock, the VB calibration was stock etc sounds pretty off base to me.
I've compared Bruce's kit, Chris's kit, TransGo's (all of them), Art Carr's, TCI's, and probably a few others I've forgotten.
I can say that Bruce's, Art Carr's, and Transgo's are pretty similar. Some accumulation differences but all have some circuitry changes on the 3rd accumulator circuit, similar feed hole sizes, etc.
Bruce runs quite a bit of line pressure. Nowhere near stock.
Anybody that "discounts" the basic principles of an automatic transmission as far as clutch holding capacity and what affects it is a fool.
Hydraulics are hydraulics, and they are considered laws of physics. No opinions involved there.
If you double the size of apply, you double the clamping pressure on the other side of the piston for a given pressure.
This has been proven to work on other automatic transmissions. TH400 and TH350 being two that are proven.
Every aftermarket performance VB kit on the market for a TH350 increases the apply area. Even the $25 B&M parts store kit...
All the performance VB's on the market for a TH400 also do the same because it's the only way even the extremely rugged TH400 will handle 450 lb/ft of torque for extended periods of time.
500 HP will kill the 3rd clutches on a TH400 in short order if doing WOT 2-3 shifts (drag racing) in a car the weight of a GN.
This is well known across the industry. Not an "opinion" just an accepted fact by every performance builder I know of and talk to. Myself, John Kilgore, Tony (Hughes), Hutch in Canada, Chris at CK, Lonnie Diers, etc.
A TH400 and TH350 definitely have more friction area than a 200-4R for the third clutches. They typically run at lower pressures but again, when you can go from a trans that barely handles 500 HP for a season because of third clutches, and then it can easily handle 900 HP for seasons at a time with the same VB "calibration" (same orificing, same accumulators, same 180 psi line pressure) but simply adding clutch apply area makes it live.
That is proof enough for me that adding clutch apply area is the "fix" for a weak design third gear.
The 200-4R isn't magical with it's own set of hydraulic laws that apply to it. No matter if you think Dave is a magician, he's working with the same physics the rest of us are.
Additional frictions are OK. I don't absolutely subscribe to the theory that you must run 6 with stock .090" thick steels.
I do usually build them this way because it has proven effective for me to the 600 HP mark on the 200-4R.
I do however have some out there running 7 Borg-Warner tans (stock) on fwd steels without issue.
I'm not discounting Dave as a builder, however IF he is as good as you claim, he won't need you here backing him up because he will have the reputation and be busy enough he doesn't need the work.
The stock 200-4R calibration is fine for a stock vehicle.
Obviously a properly working pump is always key in ANY auto trans or even hydraulic machinery.
Without pressure, it's all just a pile of burnt up clutches.
Bison mentioned cross-leaks.
All valve bodies, cases, and pumps should be surfaced or flat sanded. Most of the notable builders here use teflon sealing rings for the same reason. Keep the pressure where it belongs. This isn't specific to the 200-4R either.
A hypocrit is someone who says one thing and does another. WHERE DID I DO THAT? None of the things openly shared on this forum have ever helped me. None of them where needed to get a propper 2-3 shift.
Where did I say Bruce uses stock pressures?
Where did I say I am using stock pressures?
The only thing in my third gear circuitry that is different from stock is the slightly larger third clutch apply hole in the seperator plate. Again all these things you metion above are all good. They just never helped my third gear shift quality.
Incease pressure= more clamping force.
Increase apply area= more clamping force
Increased friction area= more holding power.
Where did I say these things weren't true?
You don't need more clutches,recalibration,or more clamping force to get a good 2-3 shift quality in a 2004R.
I agree 100%.
JDSfastGN
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2001
- Messages
- 3,506
Ok... you did do that... you came in and overlooked/discarded other builders advice and stated that Davids way is the best and only way to get a good 2-3 that will last blah blah blah... So its ok for you to dismiss all the other builders advice on here but we get called out for ignoring Davids? Well I can't say that I ignore it because I have no idea what his advice is. Never called and asked for it but Ive also never seen anything but a quick advertisement of how this problem was fixed back in the 1800s and he is going to pm you about it. Thats fine if he doesn't want to share, we all have our trade secrets, but this is the transmission tech section.
Next, he doesn't need you cheerleading for him. You do a pretty bad job of making a coherent post. You claim no calibration changes yet it has an enlarged 3rd gear apply in the plate... I don't follow. Thats a calibration change. Some choose to run higher line pressure to solve the issue.. I don't like more than 280 psi because Ive seen more hard parts breakage when it goes much higher. I like to dual feed. If he does his mods and reliably gets away with a stock forward drum more power to him.... but I always find these claims to be unbelieveable and most of the cars that get away with this are track only cars that don't experience the loading and unloading of violently spinning tires that suddenly grab or wheel hop from street use, or shift firmness is sacraficed for hard parts to live.
You stated
"I now know extra clutches aren't needed nor do they hurt.
I don't care about opinions only what works.
It seems as if many on this site want to pretend Dave Husek doesn't exist when in fact he's been successfuly building these transmissions longer than anyone.
Maybe we should just call Dave a liar."
Where the hell do you get this crap? Maybe Im out of the "vendetta against David" loop but this sounds pretty insecure. Why should other builders cheerlead for David? How are we acting like he doesn't exist? Because he stated the stock calibration is ok so it must be? Thats fine, it works for him. Dual feeding and blocking the 3-2 valve works for me. I have a number of 550-620 rwhp cars that are doing just fine with that setup... but I guess it doesn't work... damn somebody better let them know:frown:
