Slips into third

[Ttype6]

Ok... you did do that... you came in and overlooked/discarded other builders advice and stated that Davids way is the best and only way to get a good 2-3 that lasts.

You claim no calibration changes yet it has an enlarged 3rd gear apply in the plate. Thats a calibration change.

Some choose to run higher line pressure to solve the issue. If he does his mods and reliably gets away with a stock forward drum more power to him.

Dual feeding and blocking the 3-2 valve works for me.

I have a number of 550-620 rwhp cars that are doing just fine with that setup... but I guess it doesn't work... damn somebody better let them know:frown:

Are you shure you don't have anything against Dave?

Agian,where did I say something and do another?

You and other builders say this that and the other must be done to achieve goog 2-3 shift quality. Dave said those things aren't neccesary. I know he is right.

If you think all the things you do for the 2-3 shift are neccesary,you and they are wrong. Let me try to state this in a way you can understand. I never said what you do doesn't work. I said it isn't neccesary. Those are two different statements. I hope you can distinguish between the two.

Wow,you realy caught me on the calibration thing.
Can you make a 2004R shift into third gear and live with this one calibration chang?

Again,higher pressure doesn't fix poor 2-3 shift quality.

 

[chris718]

We all know the stock calibration doesnt work and when the hi clutches burn out again so will you.

 

[Ttype6]

We all know the stock calibration doesnt work and when the hi clutches burn out again so will you.

It's not the things we don't know that hurt us. It's the things we know that just aren't so.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Are you shure you don't have anything against Dave?

Agian,where did I say something and do another?

You and other builders say this that and the other must be done to achieve goog 2-3 shift quality. Dave said those things aren't neccesary. I know he is right.

If you think all the things you do for the 2-3 shift are neccesary,you and they are wrong. Let me try to state this in a way you can understand. I never said what you do doesn't work. I said it isn't neccesary. Those are two different statements. I hope you can distinguish between the two.

Wow,you realy caught me on the calibration thing.
Can you make a 2004R shift into third gear and live with this one calibration chang?

Again,higher pressure doesn't fix poor 2-3 shift quality.

Wow its not even worth the time. No I don't have anything personally against David as I'm sure he is a very nice and helpful guy. I am not a big fan of not sharing much in the way of tech and making it more of an advertisement. Most of the other builders here post tons of tech (I'm not talking about myself as I do not have near the knowledge of the builders on this site) and most of their post have been a great asset to myself and Im sure others that have used the search function to help with their builds.
Oh and I seriously doubt that without the high line pressure that you are running your third gear wouldn't live as long. Keep living in that fantasy world and go run the car on a Gtech again.

 

[bison]

I know mine works and the one i put in my other car works and the 10 or so i built last year for others worked. Not one of the engines had less than 400hp. Most had more. Not all were turbo 6's. Mine has 800+hp. None ran the stock seperator plate, none had less than .110 3rd oil hole in the plate, some had billet parts, some didnt, some were dual fed and some werent. All had the 3-2 valve blocked, none had more than 6 clutches in direct, some had thicker than stock steels in direct and most had stock thickness, some had billet apply pistons and some didnt, 2 had the direct apply piston locked into the direct drum the rest did not, some had bleed orifices in the direct drum and some didnt, most had 230-250psi line, some had up to 300psi line, some used BR vb's but most didnt, some used untouched BR governors and some had other modded governors, some were lockup and some werent, some had 10 vein pumps, some were 7, some had trans brakes and some didnt, and every pump was blueprinted and used steel rings. None were the stock calibration. The point is there is no one way to get it done. Everything is on an individual application basis. A lot of different things will work. I have over 30 WOT 2-3 shifts at 750+hp on the current one in my black car. 3 of the 2-3 shifts were with a 50 shot of N2O on top of the 25-26psi ive been running because the N2O was not shutting off at 18psi like it was supposed to .

 

[jakeshoe]

I know mine works and the one i put in my other car works and the 10 or so i built last year for others worked. Not one of the engines had less than 400hp. Most had more. Not all were turbo 6's. Mine has 800+hp. None ran the stock seperator plate, none had less than .110 3rd oil hole in the plate, some had billet parts, some didnt, some were dual fed and some werent. All had the 3-2 valve blocked, none had more than 6 clutches in direct, some had thicker than stock steels in direct and most had stock thickness, some had billet apply pistons and some didnt, 2 had the direct apply piston locked into the direct drum the rest did not, some had bleed orifices in the direct drum and some didnt, most had 230-250psi line, some had up to 300psi line, some used BR vb's but most didnt, some used untouched BR governors and some had other modded governors, some were lockup and some werent, some had 10 vein pumps, some were 7, some had trans brakes and some didnt, and every pump was blueprinted and used steel rings. None were the stock calibration. The point is there is no one way to get it done. Everything is on an individual application basis. A lot of different things will work. I have over 30 WOT 2-3 shifts at 750+hp on the current one in my black car. 3 of the 2-3 shifts were with a 50 shot of N2O on top of the 25-26psi ive been running because the N2O was not shutting off at 18psi like it was supposed to .

Only 750 HP?

WTF?
You should send that junk to Dave Husek so he can show you how to do it right. :biggrin:

 

[bison]

Only 750 HP?

WTF?
You should send that junk to Dave Husek so he can show you how to do it right. :biggrin:

Im being modest. 114mph in the eighth and 137+ in the quarter letting off at 1200ft. Over 3600lbs :biggrin:

 

[jakeshoe]

That's definitely hauling the hay.

To my knowledge I have them running bottom 10's in the 1/4 in GN's and a couple of retrofits. Should have another one doing the same soon in a '69 Chevelle.

Customer just picked one up last weekend for a high 11 second car. He's a member here. Maybe he can comment on the third shift feel with dual feed, 3-2 valve mods, and a modified seperator plate.

One of the 10 second cars is also a member here.

I don't have at that level, I sell 4L80E's for that :biggrin:

 

[bison]

That's definitely hauling the hay.

To my knowledge I have them running bottom 10's in the 1/4 in GN's and a couple of retrofits. Should have another one doing the same soon in a '69 Chevelle.

Customer just picked one up last weekend for a high 11 second car. He's a member here. Maybe he can comment on the third shift feel with dual feed, 3-2 valve mods, and a modified seperator plate.

One of the 10 second cars is also a member here.

I don't have at that level, I sell 4L80E's for that :biggrin:

Too be honest i wouldnt build one for someone for that level since i need to do some more testing with different vb's and want to have at least one duplicate that performs the same. Most dont want to shell out the $ on a 200 since they can get a 400 that will take it for about $1500 or more less. Since its my own car and i can try anything i want and use it as an ongoing test. Its good to know that trans is taking it. Unfortunately i dont have a billet output in any of them so im worried about leaving off the t-brake at 15psi or more. Probably twist it right off the first time i do it

 

[jakeshoe]

What VB's do you need to do testing with?

I have a handful of the KC codes and just about every other code imaginable.
Let me know if you are looking for anything specific.

 

[bison]

What VB's do you need to do testing with?

I have a handful of the KC codes and just about every other code imaginable.
Let me know if you are looking for anything specific.

Trying to get a handle on the CR8. No WOT 1-2 over 600hp.

 

[jakeshoe]

Trying to get a handle on the CR8. No WOT 1-2 over 600hp.

I read that before.
What does the pressure gauge show?
Possible fluid pickup issue, pump flutter, governor circuit too slow to respond?

 

[bison]

I read that before.
What does the pressure gauge show?
Possible fluid pickup issue, pump flutter, governor circuit too slow to respond?

Its in the governor circuit. Its a bitch to check the governor pressure. If it was a line pressure problem it would burn the band and drum on the 1st shot and never shift under load again. Its really sensitive with the CR8 and the BR governor. I was able to get a 3-1 at nearly 50mph. Im going to try a couple different 1-2 valves and springs. The 2-3 remained on target. I would love to get the trans to shift the 1-2 at 6200.

 

[Ttype6]

I know mine works and the one i put in my other car works and the 10 or so i built last year for others worked. Not one of the engines had less than 400hp. Most had more. Not all were turbo 6's. Mine has 800+hp. None ran the stock seperator plate, none had less than .110 3rd oil hole in the plate, some had billet parts, some didnt, some were dual fed and some werent. All had the 3-2 valve blocked, none had more than 6 clutches in direct, some had thicker than stock steels in direct and most had stock thickness, some had billet apply pistons and some didnt, 2 had the direct apply piston locked into the direct drum the rest did not, some had bleed orifices in the direct drum and some didnt, most had 230-250psi line, some had up to 300psi line, some used BR vb's but most didnt, some used untouched BR governors and some had other modded governors, some were lockup and some werent, some had 10 vein pumps, some were 7, some had trans brakes and some didnt, and every pump was blueprinted and used steel rings. None were the stock calibration. The point is there is no one way to get it done. Everything is on an individual application basis. A lot of different things will work. I have over 30 WOT 2-3 shifts at 750+hp on the current one in my black car. 3 of the 2-3 shifts were with a 50 shot of N2O on top of the 25-26psi ive been running because the N2O was not shutting off at 18psi like it was supposed to .

I think it's worth mentioning that this thread was started by someone who is having problems with his 2-3 shift.I don't want to see this guy waste money on things that aren't needed. Please notice that I didn't say things that don't work. I never said these things you've described don't work. They're just not needed to fix his problem. To fix his problem the trans has to come out. I appreciate your matter of factness and no name calling.

 

[jakeshoe]

I tihnk it's worth mentioning that the builder who makes a lot of claims has to have his minions do the arguing for him...

I also would mention that "all the unnecessary" things do in fact become necessary when you modify the transmission to handle significant power.

For the sake of argument I'll say the 500 HP level is approximately where dual feeding becomes almost mandatory.
If anybody disagrees, let them please speak for themselves, with actual data from transmissions they've built personally...

With the dual feed mod comes calibration changes involving the 3rd accumulator circuit.

The mods that many of us use have been refined over time to get a good clean 3rd gear shift not just at WOT (because that is very easy) but at all throttle angles.
Dual feeding changes the shift timing at low throttle angles, requiring calibration changes.

This has been proven over and over.
Those who actually build these units for power know and understand this.

 

[whiner]

WOW,
What did I start? I just wanted advise. Could it be an internal Trans.
problem or just a TV adjustment. It will not hurt my feelings if I have to
pull the Trans. and replace it with a built one.
I am sure that all the vendors on here can built a great Trans. for almost any need.

 

[bison]

WOW,
What did I start? I just wanted advise. Could it be an internal Trans.
problem or just a TV adjustment. It will not hurt my feelings if I have to
pull the Trans. and replace it with a built one.
I am sure that all the vendors on here can built a great Trans. for almost any need.

If your at max TV at WOT and it still flares you need to take it out

 

[Ttype6]

For the sake of argument I'll say the 500 HP level is approximately where dual feeding becomes almost mandatory.
If anybody disagrees, let them please speak for themselves, with actual data from transmissions they've built personally...

I'll be glad to chime in on this one and speak for myself.I have 20 years of experience with 2004R transmissions. No one but me has ever touched my trans. I know them intimately. At 20 lbs of boost and 19 Degrees of advance and 100 octain my motor makes 600-630 hp. Many time I've used 110,25 lbs,and 25 degrees. My trans isn't dual fed. The shift is instantainious and firm. I've shifted this thing into third at these power levels at least 200 times. This is my personal data. Until I used the advice and instruction of Bruce and Dave I never had a trans that had anywhere close to an acceptable 2-3 shift quality. I burned direct clutches from 250 hp to 600hp.
I haven't burned any since my schooling. If someone has a theory that says in order for B to happen A must happen first and someone ( just one ) comes along and makes B happen without A happening first the theory is proven wrong. Again I'm not saying don't do A,or A doesn't work, or anything is better than A. I'm simply saying and proving A doesn't need to be done.I say it and prove it. Dave says it and proves it. Bruce says it and proves it. Lonnie has proven it many times also. Again it only takes one time to prove a theory wrong. Thats all the time I have for now as I have to call Dave to see what he wants me to write next. Good Day.

 

[brian]

Trying to get a handle on the CR8. No WOT 1-2 over 600hp.

The CR8 is a very nice body for a GN. I have experienced the same thing with a BRF gov and no WOT upshifts past 6800. I have seen great results with a mid weight KZ gov.

As a side note, I was noticing that you are looking for a 6200 rpm WOT upshift... my KC`s shift at 6400-6500 @WOT on XFI logs. I wonder why yours falls a bit under short of that rpm? I have used KC3-KC5 v-b`s.

Brian

 

[brian]

For the sake of argument I'll say the 500 HP level is approximately where dual feeding becomes almost mandatory.
If anybody disagrees, let them please speak for themselves, with actual data from transmissions they've built personally...

This has been proven over and over.
Those who actually build these units for power know and understand this.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to pile on the super thread hijack here.:wink:

I hate to get involved in any of this he said they said business. And, this is general, not an attack on Jake. Just random comments from me, as Jake has put ALOT of good solid tech here on the site. I stopped posting tech help after evertime I posted anything, "someone" always felt the need to contradict it.
But... We have NEVER dual fed a unit at any power level. It is just not needed from our standpoint. We have cars running starting in the bottom 10`s and high to mid 9 second zone without D-F. That is just a "band-aid" for other issues. Now, some may think it is needed. But, we have proven it is not, at least in the units I put out. We do use HIGH pressures. And, low and behold, we don`t have parts breakage or pump failures as one/some builder`s claims you will incure.
Some guys may not think the shift my units provide at "light to minimum, get through the subdivision" throttle angles is very exilerating, and I will agree. (depending on the converter) But, above that minimum throttle threshold they are positive and quick. Not as firm or harsh as some others out there.

The arguement made on extra frictions is again a builders perrogative. We feel they are usefull and necessary. Some units get 7 directs, others 8. The 550 boosters used in the units I sell... Some thought they were to much, and would cause other isses. Now, "they" are supplying similar sized units. HHMMMM....:wink: Are they on to something? :wink:

Since this was requested as food for thought, here it is.
Example...Before a ring gear failure, and backlash through the driveline caused the sprag to come apart on a 20psi+ t-brake launch at BG 2 years ago, one of my customers logged OVER 600+ passes over 3 years on the same unit from 10.5x`s to 10.1x`s. Trans braked hard every pass. Raced Friday and Saturday nights back home. This thing sounded like a stick car on the shifts with the tires biting for dear life. (I always wanted to say that in a post) He also killed to hi-dollar lock up converters in the process. The trans never missed a beat. Other than a fluid change and filter to flush the burned up clutch discs.
Ex 2. 500 booster, 8 plate direct, BQ bodied trans. 694 servo, ART CARR hardened drum and input shaft (when ART still had the input) The trans ran behind a 4.1 Stage motor for over 8 years (low/mid 10`s- high 9`s) without ever being torn down except to relace a broken stock drum, or input shaft. Clutches were NEVER touched. Not red or blue plates either. After the car ran CONSISTANT high 9`s, and a new more powerful combo was assembled, he went to a 400. (I know, I know) We wanted to have an electric brake to use his combo to it`s full abilty on the line. At this point the car ended up running 9.0x`s. So, I have to agree he made a good move here.

I always get a kick out of guys saying you need to freshen 2004R trannies yearly (or more often) to keep them alive. Or, getting a couple dozen passes on them and feeling the need to pull them to inspect them. No one in their right mind does this unless they "sense" a problem.

I have read that Dave (and I only bring up his name with 100% respect) mentions, not claims, he resolved this problem in 1992. I believe him, not just some theory some guy wants to throw around today. (don`t mean to have a tone here:smile Some people on here have actually been working on 200`s since before the internet. I know, this is hard to believe. And have a proven track record building long lasting properly functioning units with GREAT shift quality.
It is my hunch, that Dave does things similarly to what we are doing.
I would love to drive in one of Dave`s units for myself and see what it is all about. I commend him for not getting involved in all this nonsense.
Dave, PM me a price of a build with all those BRF`s you are snapping up!! (seriously) I need to drive one for myself.

It is just funny how one day one method is WRONG, and the next day it works. (like the booster valves, cheap shot I know) There is certainly more than one way to get a great result. No ones way is wrong. As long as it works!
People, keep and open mind, and absorb everday.

Peace.... Brian