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Starting T-Type After LONG Term Storage

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Finally making a little progress... in addition to some thorough cleaning I was able to change out the fuel pressure regulator, injectors, injector harness, re-wrap/cover all wiring, clean the electrical connections, installed new silicone couplings, new aluminum intake pipe, and a few paint touch ups in the engine bay.
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UNFORTUNATELY, the engine is now missfiring a bit. When I originally installed the TurboTweak chip (before the injectors) the car was actually running great. So something is amiss, but I can't seem to pinpoint it. However, I will say it almost goes away once the engine warms up. Time for some diagnostics, but any suggestions for troubleshooting are welcome. I'll try to post a video in case some has had a similar experience.
 
Here is the scan tool that was used back in the day. You will need a cartridge that includes the GN. I bought mine off eBay years ago and still use it. The refresh rate is slower than the new stuff by Bob Bailey but it does the job for me. http://m.ebay.com/itm/322382256896?_trkparms=pageci:163f01c1-e4da-11e6-86a0-74dbd180135b|parentrq:e1e509511590a2af35907e76ffb3a8a9|iid:1&_mwBanner=1
Scanmasters can easily be found used now because Bob came out with the Scanmaster G which fits in a regular gauge pod.
WOW, I paid WAAAAY more than that from the GSCA back in the late 90's!!!!!
90 bucks is a steal!
 
Well I hit my image limit, and a managed to delete the entire album as opposed to just a few superfluous pics.

Anyway, changed the plug wires today, and the car sounded a little better aside from the heavy miss that is still there. So I'm thinking that maybe one of the new injectors is bunk. I'll try swapping the old ones back in to see if it resolves itself. Not looking forward to it, but luckily it shouldn't take too long.

Also managed to drain the diff and transmission (as well as replace the windshield wipers - adding at least two horsepower). Valve body looked clean. Did not see anything out of the ordinary aside from the old transmission filter o-ring not coming out (circled in red). The oil was clean, and almost zero sediment in both cases.


If you see anything out of the ordinary, please let me know.
 
Do you know if the car was running 100 % when it was parked yrs ago ?
I would pop the valve covers off for peace of mind ( It could probably use new gaskets anyway ) and take a look at the valvetrain actions to verify you don't have any wiped cam lobes, and/or just to make sure everything looks hunky-dory under there,IE: nice and clean, nothing broken,see what parts are there from the rebuild (stock or upgraded ), everything looking 100%, etc. etc.

Ps, you may want to add this to your new oil change unless you know they put a roller cam in it when it was rebuilt .
http://zddplus.com/
 
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Car was tip top when it was originally stored. My guess is, like the MAF, there are probably some sensors/ICBs that may have gotten a little brittle over the years. I've ordered a Scanmaster, so hopefully that will pinpoint anything that is not functioning correctly. My only other worry are the couple of vacuum sensitive diaphragms. Need to figure out how to test those before simply throwing money at them.

I think you're 100% correct on taking a peak under the valve covers. They need a fresh coat of paint, and I bet those gaskets are toast. They are easy enough to take off, so next week I'll give that a shot. I'll take some pictures of the valve train, and try to get a second opinion from the board in case I miss something. Thanks.
 
I would pop the valve covers off for peace of mind ( It could probably use new gaskets anyway )

Well SH!T... decided that the valve covers did deserve some fresh paint, and that some new gaskets were most likely in order. However, when I opened them up I didn't find any mechanical abnormalities, but there was just something not right about the oil. Checked the dipstick... complete milkshake.

Luckily I had already flushed most of the coolant with distilled water (so the bearings shouldn't have been harmed by any glycol), and the car hasn't idled more than a minute at any time. So NO over-revs or otherwise grenade worthy activity.

Since the original oil was not contaminated after sitting for years, my guess is that one of the head gaskets was on it's last leg. All the caustic cleaning, new chip, new (slightly bigger) injectors and fuel pressure regulator... something... was the tipping point. This would explain the misfire that seemed to be getting worse.

Now that the bad oil is out, I'm going to drain the radiator, and then flush the engine with clean oil again.

I've been following DeltaBravo's head gasket replacement, so now I just need to find a good service manual and set to work.
 
I would flush the engine with trannny oil, just pour it in and let it sit in the pan and remove it. Then fill with hi zinc oil. I like the Brad Penn or Valvoline VR1
 
i regret that i have not followed your thread for the last couple weeks. I feel like i could have saved you quiet a bit of time and trouble. In the last 20 years i have revived at least 50 or 60 turbo Regals that have been in storage for 10 years or more so i feel i have as much experience doing this to these cars as just about anyone. In case you find yourself doing this again sometime here is some advice. When starting a stored car after a long time you need to focus on your worst enemy----that is the fluids. You have already done the right thing with the oil but not so much for the gas and coolant. Unlike what some believe you can "prime" the pump till you wear out a new drill and you will never get the cam lobes or cylinder walls lubricated so at least you did that right. Unfortunately one out of three does not guarantee much success. As for gas you should remove the fuel rail cap and shrader valve and attach a long enough piece of hose to reach over the fender and into a large gas can. Find the fuel pump prime wire (single grey wire with unused black plug hanging underneath the alternator) and with a jumper wire connect it to the large stud on the rear of the alternator. This will start the fuel pump and hopefully gas will flow out of the hose into the bucket. If the flow is at least 1/2 gallon a minute you will know that the fuel system (tank,pump and filter) is at least good enough to start the car and run at idle. If it doesn't do this you need to drop the tank, clean it and check the pump ie replace it !. Let it continue to run till it starts sucking air and turn it off. The level in the tank will be rather low and if you add at least 5 gallons of fresh gas you should be good to go since the new gas will dilute the bad gas enough to allow the car to run. Next take a 9 volt battery and a pair of clip leads and one at a time touch them to the pins on each injector to see if you hear a distinct "click". If you do its almost certain that your fuel system will function well enough for the car to run. Only if you find one or more stuck injectors should you start taking the rail apart. Its just not necessary to change injectors just to start the engine at this point. One important rule to follow is keep in mind that the only thing that is likely to fail with time and lack of use are the fluids. Your goal at first should be to just get the darn engine running. All the time you spent cleaning intakes, changing plugs, replacing sensors etc is really wasted until you actually get the engine running. If you have reason to believe it was running when stored it is highly unlikely that these things are really going to fail if they are sitting on a parts shelf or in the engine. Sensors, engine parts, and even rubber parts are not likely to fail just sitting. I have seen cases where mice chewed into wiring and water leaked past T tops causing damage to the ecm but that is rare and obvious when it happens. Save the parts changing till you get it running. As for the coolant its best to drain the coolant then just put water in the system in case of leaking like you seemed to have done. Next time leave the radiator cap off to prevent pressure build up that can lead to leakage. Remember keep it simple oil/gas/water is all you should deal with till you have it running. If you are lucky enough to have a car with stock injectors by all means put a stock GM chip in it just to get it started. The turbo tweek chip is a great chip but it is just plain silly to add it to the mix in a mostly stock car just to get it started. keep it simple and and do the upgrades and fixing after you have it running. taking things apart and changing things before hand will only complicate your efforts.
 
i regret that i have not followed your thread for the last couple weeks.

I think you may have missed a couple of pages, but that is the sequence of events that was followed almost to the letter. The gas tank was siphoned and scoped; new gas plus heet added; radiator drained and refilled with distilled water; oil drained then engine drenched in 20 liters of new oil; new fuel and oil filters; plugs changed; cylinders compression tested; vacuum lines changed; and engine turned over by hand BEFORE the first start. I think that was a more than prudent sequence to follow. The car has yet to be driven or even idled more than five minutes out of an abundance of precaution.

The MAF and (base) TT chip was added AFTER the successful first start to improve the idle and adjust for ethanol that is now in the gas. Those were needed. Then restarted successfully. Then the new injectors and fuel regulator were installed, and EGR deleted. (FYI those new injectors/regulator are nearly stock - so no overkill here.) In that process I spent time cleaning intakes etc. since the parts were already disassembled.

There has NOT been a haphazard or random approach of simply pulling parts off for the sake of replacing them.

The assertion that rubber and silicone ICs don't deteriorate over time is specious. But if you would like to buy the old tires, old vacuum hoses, and old MAF, I will give you a good deal...
 
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Well SH!T... decided that the valve covers did deserve some fresh paint, and that some new gaskets were most likely in order. However, when I opened them up I didn't find any mechanical abnormalities, but there was just something not right about the oil. Checked the dipstick... complete milkshake.

Luckily I had already flushed most of the coolant with distilled water (so the bearings shouldn't have been harmed by any glycol), and the car hasn't idled more than a minute at any time. So NO over-revs or otherwise grenade worthy activity.

Since the original oil was not contaminated after sitting for years, my guess is that one of the head gaskets was on it's last leg. All the caustic cleaning, new chip, new (slightly bigger) injectors and fuel pressure regulator... something... was the tipping point. This would explain the misfire that seemed to be getting worse.

Now that the bad oil is out, I'm going to drain the radiator, and then flush the engine with clean oil again.

I've been following DeltaBravo's head gasket replacement, so now I just need to find a good service manual and set to work.
That's why your dad parked it likely. I'll give you a vacation day to help tear it down next week if you want. Jack out in Royce City can go through the heads and mill them if needed. His work is outstanding.
 
That's why your dad parked it likely. I'll give you a vacation day to help tear it down next week if you want. Jack out in Royce City can go through the heads and mill them if needed. His work is outstanding.

Shawn thanks for being helpful and constructive throughout this process! It is truly appreciated. I might take you up on that, but I will like remove the heads before the end of the week... just need to find a good service manual so that I don't miss anything.
 
I wonder if you haven't let the engine warm up could that cause milky oil? I mean, by starting and shutting it off without warming up the motor could you be allowing a bunch of condensation form? I know that can eat up an exhaust system. Just some random thoughts from what's left of my old brain.
 
I wonder if you haven't let the engine warm up could that cause milky oil? I mean, by starting and shutting it off without warming up the motor could you be allowing a bunch of condensation form? I know that can eat up an exhaust system. Just some random thoughts from what's left of my old brain.

I've seen this hypothesized in some other threads... Possibly, but the engine hasn't really been run long enough to build up any considerable condensation. Plus it's a fairly homogeneous mixture that can be found from the top of the valve train to the bottom of the pan - so that would require a lot of condensate.

Pulling the heads off shouldn't be too bad. Oddly enough I'm looking forward to it!

Thanks.
 
I think you may have missed a couple of pages, but that is the sequence of events that was followed almost to the letter. The gas tank was siphoned and scoped; new gas plus heet added; radiator drained and refilled with distilled water; oil drained then engine drenched in 20 liters of new oil; new fuel and oil filters; plugs changed; cylinders compression tested; vacuum lines changed; and engine turned over by hand BEFORE the first start. I think that was a more than prudent sequence to follow. The car has yet to be driven or even idled more than five minutes out of an abundance of precaution.

The MAF and (base) TT chip was added AFTER the successful first start to improve the idle and adjust for ethanol that is now in the gas. Those were needed. Then restarted successfully. Then the new injectors and fuel regulator were installed, and EGR deleted. (FYI those new injectors/regulator are nearly stock - so no overkill here.) In that process I spent time cleaning intakes etc. since the parts were already disassembled.

There has NOT been a haphazard or random approach of simply pulling parts off for the sake of replacing them.

The assertion that rubber and silicone ICs don't deteriorate over time is specious. But if you would like to buy the old tires, old vacuum hoses, and old MAF, I will give you a good deal...



I think you did it pretty much the right way ,(or tried to anyway,Much better then alot of people getting a new car that they are not familiar with would have ).
You knew not to just start it and hope for the best.In the first post you mentioned that you had already learned alot from reading on the site, and then went further and asked the advice of people in the know, on how to do it right so as not to cause further damage, and pretty much took most of the advice.
Unfortunetely these cars can be a pain sometimes, they are 30 yrs old and have had boost run thru them all their lives,and then this one sat for yrs, kind of a recipe for potential problems.

I'm guessing a head gasket problem(if that is what it is) didn't just happen from a little bit of idling, and low rpm no boost revs.
I would have to think this was an issue when the car was parked yrs ago.
Anyway, you should continue the way you have been, and read and ask LOTS of questions on doing the head gaskets,because this is " when it could get very frustrating and costly if not done (( exactly right )) "
There is alot of things to know when doing a head gasket on these cars,and people on this sight can save you alot of time,money and headaches ,so definetely ask the questions.
Do a search for " replacing head gasket " threads ,which will help big time,with info like not reusing the original style tty head bolts, and that the head bolts on these motors go into water jackets so they need to be cleaned and then sealed with thread sealer (VERY IMPORTANT) and on and on.

You may want to take a video of the vacuum lines and all other connections before you pull it apart,so you can go back later and refer to the video to make sure you got things right when reassembling it.
when pulling the heads, know that there is a ground strap on the back of the passenger side head (IF it hasn't been moved to the back of the intake),that is kind of hidden and can be broken and go unnoticed and then when reassembled can give you electrical head aches if not reatached, and the list of tips you will recieve will go on and on.
If you have somebody that is very familiar with THESE cars it is aVERY good idea for them to be involved when doing this, for these cars the head gaskets are very important ,(As you now know) because they are constantly under 15 Lbs and up of boost.

These cars are also known for wiping out cams, a big part of the problem is that the oil we have today is not formulated for flat tappet cams,that is why i suggested you add the zddplus (post #64) to your oil change, it adds the things that protect our ancient flat tappet cams that are missing in new oils, click on the different pages on that site and it will explain all about it)
It is not just a auto parts store mystery oil it was actually formulated for our cars by a much trusted member of the Buick community ,who just by chance has given you some great advice in the past.
So while it is apart pay close attention to your cam and the lifter bottoms and make sure everything is ok there, usually once they start to wear ,the lobe wear accelerates quickly and kills the cam and can put metal thru your motor, so if there is a problem, the time to discover it is while you have the heads off.
All this is assuming you have determined it is definetely a blown gasket.
A leak down test should tell you for sure.
Have you pulled the spark plugs out and gandered at them yet?

Good luck.
 
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I think you did it pretty much the right way ,(Much better then alot of people getting a new car that they are not familiar with would have ).

Thanks. That is helpful. I'm going to take your advice and that of Mark to pressure test the cooling system as well as perform a leak down test to see what I can pinpoint. Already in process of reviewing the service manual, but I still need to search the site more on head gasket replacement. There doesn't appear to be a comprehensive how to form what I've seen, just more anecdotal discussions on gasket and decking preferences.
 
If you find there is a internal leak, yank it out throw it on a stand and go through it. You can do a much better job and save your back.
 
Well I took a couple days off from it to cool off a bit... got around to pressure testing the radiator at 15 pounds, and there was zero fluctuation after 75 minutes. That's positive.

During that time I decided to pull the plugs to check them out, and found something interesting. All of the plugs have a fair amount of buildup, except #5 (on the left) which looks almost new.

Not sure which ones I should be more concerned about...

#5 has had two different sets of plugs wires (original and brand new), and I always double check my connections. I think I'll want to plug #5 into the coil (but outside the block) to see if the coil is working correctly and test it with another plug as well.

The other plugs... they don't look oil fouled to me, but they do look like 5,000 miles of running - not 5 minutes.

(ps - Yes... I know the preference is for the UR5s, not Iridiums. UR5s weren't in stock, and the Iridiums were on sale.)
 
Well I took a couple days off from it to cool off a bit... got around to pressure testing the radiator at 15 pounds, and there was zero fluctuation after 75 minutes. That's positive.

During that time I decided to pull the plugs to check them out, and found something interesting. All of the plugs have a fair amount of buildup, except #5 (on the left) which looks almost new.

Not sure which ones I should be more concerned about...

#5 has had two different sets of plugs wires (origin

I can't see the pics ,if i click on the link in any of your posts it says I do not have permission to see the media,so i'm guessing alot of others can't see them either.
Try to figure out how to post the pics as thumbnails and you will probably get more help.
Without seeing the pics though, I'd be most concerned with the 1 plug/cylinder that is drastically different then the other 5.
 
Can't see pic's either, same error message.

The clean plug is likely the cylinder that got the water in it.

RemoveBeforeFlight
 
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