Swapped to a 4L80E

[TurboBob]

Got everything ordered and in-process. Freshenup kit for the trans (was a low mile junkyard pull, and could have been reused, but decided to freshen it), shift kit stuff, converter (PTC lockup), and controller (MicroTCU from TurboTweak).

Will document all of it with new pictures and part numbers.

Bob

 

[TireFryer]

I’m following this thread. Are these trannys tuneable like in normal car? Like shift points and shift firmness?

 

[TurboBob]

I’m following this thread. Are these trannys tuneable like in normal car? Like shift points and shift firmness?

yes, shift curves for each gear, pressure/firmness based on load (MAP/boost), etc. the 4L80 also doesn't have shift overlap on any shift, (the 200 is releasing the band and engaging the direct clutch on the 2-3 shift).

Bob

 

[TireFryer]

yes, shift curves for each gear, pressure/firmness based on load (MAP/boost), etc. the 4L80 also doesn't have shift overlap on any shift, (the 200 is releasing the band and engaging the direct clutch on the 2-3 shift).

Bob

Ahhhhh so that’s why it’s so hard to get a nice hard shift on the 2-3 no matter who built the trans lol. Just been thinking about a 4l60-80 swap sometime in the distant future

 

[TurboBob]

the 2-3 is a mixed bag on the 200, you can "dual feed" the direct clutch, but then the overlap becomes harder to tune. If you get WOT working well, part-throttle might have a hard tie-up, or a cut-loose. Some of the builders have figured out a decent compromise, but its still a compromise.

Don't even bother with a 4L60, it has its own pile of problems and isnt any stronger.

The 4L80 is a beast, its way stronger to begin with, has none of the overlap issues, is fully tunable, well understood by all the builders, parts are plentiful, etc. Its a little heavier, might absorb a little hp, but I have not heard of one instance of someone regretting the change.

Bob

 

[TireFryer]

I got my 2-3 to bang hard at wot. Like it’s milliseconds. The normal driving feels looser, but I have an old junk vigilante 3200-3400 stall converter so the trans feels super soft because the converter is so loose. I need to get some other things ironed out first, but eventually I’m going to get a stand-alone and I’ll throw a 4l80 in with it. Someday. After college.

Fun fact. I could get a fully build TA performance engine built for the price of one term at my college..

 

[Reggie West]

Subscribed

 

[Mr.Spool]

the 2-3 is a mixed bag on the 200, you can "dual feed" the direct clutch, but then the overlap becomes harder to tune. If you get WOT working well, part-throttle might have a hard tie-up, or a cut-loose. Some of the builders have figured out a decent compromise, but its still a compromise.

Don't even bother with a 4L60, it has its own pile of problems and isnt any stronger.

The 4L80 is a beast, its way stronger to begin with, has none of the overlap issues, is fully tunable, well understood by all the builders, parts are plentiful, etc. Its a little heavier, might absorb a little hp, but I have not heard of one instance of someone regretting the change.

Bob

I have been watching this thread and been silent to this point.
Have seen many 4l80e cars,glide cars,400 cars,driven and raced many of them.
But.......
Bob I have had 0 issues tuning overlap on a 200 transmission.
Even on the stuff you have built and designed yourself.
That's why I'm kind of shocked at your post.
If it matters
Tranny is a duel fed 200 built by dave husek.
Not sure if you have had one built by him.
The 4l80e is very heavy and robs alot of horsepower.
Swapping them in and out has proved this.
I cant even understand why someone would even want that heavy thing.
A 3 speed 400 with the right tire and gearing in the rear is fine to cruise.
And at the power level it's truly needed your not cruising the car anyway cause it's way past that point of 90mph highway stuff,its trailer stuff.
The 200 is alot more efficient,lighter,and has many parts that are available now that the op didnt have access to.
He might have a different opinion.
He might want to build a bunch of 4l80e stuff and get away from 200 stuff.
But regardless.........
The proper built 200 can live sub 9 seconds.
And the 4l80e absorbs alot more hp than a 200 it's not even close actually.
I do agree that the 4l80e can handle eventually more power and is understood alot more by the builders for sure.
Not many can build a great 200.
Actually I will only use 1 guy for a 200 at this point especially if the build requires real power.
The 400s many can build to handle power.
And I'm not a 4l80e or 400 hater lol
Have a few of them myself on several different rides and combos.

 

[TurboBob]

Otto posted this 4 years ago or so. Perhaps he has a different opinion now.,

Once I get mine swapped out, I will be able to form my own opinion. Right now my opinions are just vicarious.

I'm not sure what "a lot" is, you mention parasitic loss and such, but no data.

I'm also looking forward to load (MAP) referenced shift tuning, the ability to set shift points and firmness individually for each gear, no overlap on the 2-3, no 2-3 shuttling, increased data logging from the TCU, Strength/durability, etc.

If it cost me a few hp, I'll turn the boost up. I'm not looking to run a number, win a class, or set a record. I just want to drive it.

I'll report back my impressions (good or bad).

Bob

 

[Mr.Spool]

Otto posted this 4 years ago or so. Perhaps he has a different opinion now.,

Once I get mine swapped out, I will be able to form my own opinion. Right now my opinions are just vicarious.

I'm not sure what "a lot" is, you mention parasitic loss and such, but no data.

I'm also looking forward to load (MAP) referenced shift tuning, the ability to set shift points and firmness individually for each gear, no overlap on the 2-3, no 2-3 shuttling, increased data logging from the TCU, Strength/durability, etc.

If it cost me a few hp, I'll turn the boost up. I'm not looking to run a number, win a class, or set a record. I just want to drive it.

I'll report back my impressions (good or bad).

Bob

Setting shift points can be done a few different ways,
Manually shifting the trans or leaving it in drive with the proper governor weight/valvebody and setting the rev limiter on any trans can be few of them on a 200
The 4l80e will need a controller or ecu.
As far as shift firmness if you want to go fast soft won't be the way to go.
on the various setups I've driven firmness = fast
Shuttering doesnt happen on the 200 when built right.
Nor does overlap.
Depending on the ecu you will be able to set your shift points,
If not there are separate controllers to do that.
I assume you know where your motor needs to rpm.
I also assume you understand what line pressure is needed to run a 400 or 4l80e and not take the crank out of the motor

 

[TurboBob]

Setting shift points can be done a few different ways,
Manually shifting the trans or leaving it in drive with the proper governor weight/valvebody and setting the rev limiter on any trans can be few of them on a 200
The 4l80e will need a controller or ecu.
As far as shift firmness if you want to go fast soft won't be the way to go.
on the various setups I've driven firmness = fast
Shuttering doesnt happen on the 200 when built right.
Nor does overlap.
Depending on the ecu you will be able to set your shift points,
If not there are separate controllers to do that.
I assume you know where your motor needs to rpm.
I also assume you understand what line pressure is needed to run a 400 or 4l80e and not take the crank out of the motor

Of course I can manually shift it..... If I want to raise my (automatic) part throttle 2-3, without affecting all the others, its not practical with the 200.
Controller: yup, looking forward to it
Firmness = fast, sure, ok, and of course the part throttle on the 200 can be tuned with the cable, hole sizes, accumulator springs and lots of pan drops. Tighten the cable and all the shift points move around. Hard shifts at light throttle are pointless.
The 2-3 shuttle, I'm sure its solveable, I've heard Dave has a solution. All the other solutions I've heard of from the gurus involve tricking the TV up off minimum (washers/spacers/springs). I've engineered a real solution for it but don't have the patience (or a lift) to implement it.
I have also heard that Dave has tuned the dual-feed to work well. But I have only heard about it.
Yes, I know the characteristics of my engine.
Yes I know about converter pressure, and the ways it can get too high. Converter pressure is regulated separately from line pressure, and its converter pressure that pushes the converter forward. So we're all set there.

The 4L80 is about 55 lbs heavier than the 2004R, which is about the weight of a half-tank of gas. My car doesnt feel faster at half-full, perhaps I could see it on a time slip. Rotational inertia will be higher, that will absorb some power, how much I don't know, but I'm good with that.

 

[V6sleeper]

For reference I know the th400 eats up around 40 hp on a Big block Buick so im assuming the 4l80 % would be around the same.
11 hp more then the th350 , again the percentages are probably different on a turbo buick with many other factors

 

[Mr.Spool]

For reference I know the th400 eats up around 40 hp on a Big block Buick so im assuming the 4l80 % would be around the same.
11 hp more then the th350 , again the percentages are probably different on a turbo buick with many other factors

Yes they are worse actually.

 

[Mr.Spool]

high. Converter pressure is regulated separately from line pressure, and its converter pressure that pushes the converter forward. So we're all set there.

I'm glad you have that straight and are dumping converter pressure.
I haven't seen it discussed in this thread till I brought it up and it's the most important topic of the 400/4l80e swap.
I've seen multiple cranks taken out.
The dump solves this problem.

 

[TurboBob]

I heard back from Otto, I was curious what his long term impressions were:

"I sold the car shortly after installing it. I was a fan of how drove for sure."

My controller arrived last week, the converter is due this week. Should have it together and running in the next couple months.

Bob

 

[Mr.Spool]

A fan of driving it up untill when?
Did the op use a dump valve?
I know the history of the car what happened to it and know where it is now,including the same trans in this thread.
There were no long term impressions because it was sold.
For those that read the thread and want to convert over and want to keep their crank from breaking a dump valve is a must
And expect it to drive like a 400.

 

[TurboBob]

A fan of driving it up untill when?
Did the op use a dump valve?
I know the history of the car what happened to it and know where it is now,including the same trans in this thread.
There were no long term impressions because it was sold.
For those that read the thread and want to convert over and want to keep their crank from breaking a dump valve is a must
And expect it to drive like a 400.

sigh.
I posted his exact response, I suppose I can post it again if you are having trouble with it.

I expect it to drive like a 4L80, (yes, I know the difference)

I will report my impressions. Anyone local can stop by and take it for a spin. I can't make it to BG this year, but might be at Lorenz's open house.

The 40 ppr output speed sensor should make my traction control a bit more responsive also

Bob

 

[Mr.Spool]

sigh.
I posted his exact response, I suppose I can post it again if you are having trouble with it.

I expect it to drive like a 4L80, (yes, I know the difference)

I will report my impressions. Anyone local can stop by and take it for a spin. I can't make it to BG this year, but might be at Lorenz's open house.

The 40 ppr output speed sensor should make my traction control a bit more responsive also

Bob

The trouble I am having with it is you seem to say you know everything but never posted about some serious problems that can be associated with the swap.
Which happens alot on these boards.
If you need a 40ppr output sensor tied into your traction control more power to you, but there is no majic there that cant be done with a basic electronic boost controller and co2 or a good driver that has done their homework on scaling the car and setting up the suspension on the right tire.

 

[TurboBob]

One last.
I surely don't know everything. I have done a lot of reading and believe I have a good understanding of the transmission
My application is probably 600hp, 99% street driver. I'm not locking at WOT.

A stock 4L80E would likely handle my power level. I am building a modest build and will be running stock TCC programming.
Converter pressure is regulated by the converter limit valve when unlocked, and the TCC PWM valve when locked (part throttle here).

If I were not PWMing the TCC I would likely have pressure issues unless I used the Sonnax kit or one of those TH400 thingy's
But I'm not.

Traction control is just something fun to play with. with the stock VSS, the rear wheel speed signal is lazy.
the 4L80 TOSS is a convenient solution. This is street-car traction control that compares driven and non-driven wheel speeds, not launch-style stuff for "real racers" (like you I guess)

Bob

 

[Mr.Spool]

One last.
I surely don't know everything. I have done a lot of reading and believe I have a good understanding of the transmission
My application is probably 600hp, 99% street driver. I'm not locking at WOT.

A stock 4L80E would likely handle my power level. I am building a modest build and will be running stock TCC programming.
Converter pressure is regulated by the converter limit valve when unlocked, and the TCC PWM valve when locked (part throttle here).

If I were not PWMing the TCC I would likely have pressure issues unless I used the Sonnax kit or one of those TH400 thingy's
But I'm not.

Traction control is just something fun to play with. with the stock VSS, the rear wheel speed signal is lazy.
the 4L80 TOSS is a convenient solution. This is street-car traction control that compares driven and non-driven wheel speeds, not launch-style stuff for "real racers" (like you I guess)

Bob

At 600hp not much is needed on a 400 or 4l80e to make them live
You will be good to go.