TA Performance Race Headers cross over headaches

[Toby_Goodmk]

Crossover pipe is being sent back. It is subject to issues and the metal stock at the angle shown in the picture is not opportune. The metal stock needs to be flat and on the same "plane" as the V band's surface. To be continued..........

 

[BobbyBuick]

you can have this one

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

From my conversation that I had today..... The V bands are all mild steel. They were mild steel until an undetermined time which they are now chrome plated. Mine are chrome plated. These bands were not chrome plated. So all SS headers V bands are mild steel, the tubing is stainless. The V bands are now chrome plated, back then they were not. This was my understanding.

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

From my conversation that I had today..... The V bands are all mild steel. They were mild steel until an undetermined time which they are now chrome plated. Mine are chrome plated. These bands were not chrome plated. So all SS headers V bands are mild steel, the tubing is stainless. The V bands are now chrome plated, back then they were not. This was my understanding.

For an expensive set of headers, that seems like total BS. Especially when stainless VBand flanges are available - i understand mild steel manifold flanges but for the VBands that seems like crap.... glad i never pulled the trigger..

 

[Shawn N]

Why cut corners on the most expensive headers out there???

 

[bison]

I didn't even get to the results on one car. I cut the flanges off and had some nice ones welded on that wouldn't leak. When you see a gasket included with a v band flange you know it's a problem area. Probably fine for a non turbo application but there's no way in hell they can seal 50+psi of hot exhaust pressure.


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[Royal-T-Ltd]

I'm pretty sure even the Chinese variants of the SE headers have stainless v-band flanges


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[Toby_Goodmk]

Over the past couple weeks I have spent some time with Mike from TA on the phone. We are going to build a new crossover as the angle of the Vband not being perpendicular to the metal stock is not correct. We need to eliminate this as a leak possibility. TA has been very receptive and helpful in this manner and thought I would pass along this information. There have even been mentions of shortening the length of the male side of the crossover pipe so you would not have to cut metal stock off the pipe to get the distance between the headers to fit (as in my case) because they bottom out, and the distance is too wide.

 

[Heskahoka]

Over the past couple weeks I have spent some time with Mike from TA on the phone. .... We need to eliminate this as a leak possibility. TA has been very receptive and helpful in this manner and thought I would pass along this information. .

Toby, a quick thanks for the write up, level headed approach and ultimately working with TA to sort the issue. Posts like this help us all.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

try to be as level headed as can be

 

[TurboTGuy]

try to be as level headed as can be

I think ya done good..........

 

[turbo89]

try to be as level headed as can be

Make sure to thank Nick .. as i bet he had alot to do with TA helping you out

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

Make sure to thank Nick .. as i bet he had alot to do with TA helping you out

I work closely with Nick so yes he lead me in the direction to discuss with Mike. Me and Nick have alot of history so it needs no mention, nor would he think it was warranted. In all honesty, Mike asked me why I did not bring this issue to his attention earlier (when it first started 4 months ago?) which was discussed why. Me and Mike spent over an hour on the phone in two separate conversations covering things and doing the best at trouble shooting from 2,000 miles away. It is still a possibility that this noise will turn out to be a ghost later found...maybe not found, but my fingers are crossed this takes care of the noise. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[captndave737]

I have Poston SS Headers with the stock crossover pipe. The fitment has never thrilled me. I was ready to spring for some TA Headers but I'm glad I didn't now.

I've thought of putting a flex pipe just below the driver side flange. To me it seems the best place to put it since it would relieve the stress put on the headers from the crossover pipe elongating when heated. I think they flex a little side to side better than lengthwise but I may be wrong.

I think if I had the TA's I'd do the same thing and if they were too wide I'd cut some off the male slip joint and when things were aligned weld it up.

Every other car I've owned since 99 has had flexpipes in the exhaust, German and Japanese. Thoughts?

 

[1952ray]

I have Poston SS Headers with the stock crossover pipe. The fitment has never thrilled me. I was ready to spring for some TA Headers but I'm glad I didn't now.

I've thought of putting a flex pipe just below the driver side flange. To me it seems the best place to put it since it would relieve the stress put on the headers from the crossover pipe elongating when heated. I think they flex a little side to side better than lengthwise but I may be wrong.

I think if I had the TA's I'd do the same thing and if they were too wide I'd cut some off the male slip joint and when things were aligned weld it up.

Every other car I've owned since 99 has had flexpipes in the exhaust, German and Japanese. Thoughts?

After what Toby has been doing trying to fix this,I think you have the right idea. Now I have a set of new TA's that have just come back from ceramic coating, however the engine that Richard Clark is going to build me has not been started yet. So it will be this spring before I know what I will be in for.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

There is not a lot of room (as in STRAIGHT metal stock space) to put a flex in the drivers side of the xover IMO. The flex pipe doesnt move too much to offset the angle or curve it needs to meet the drivers side header. The flex pipe would be better suited in the slip joint area. I even bought one, and did not use it "yet" as I think the fitment of the crossover is adequate. With this being said, I think the flex pipe would come in contact with the flex plate shield since it's diameter is in excess of 3"

 

[Mike E]

I don't come here often, but I've been watching this thread. Seeing the picture in post 121 brings this thought to me. The V-bands themselves aren't meant to do 100% of the sealing. It's near impossible to keep that surface 100% flat when welding it on. And because stainless grows so much it's hard to keep things like that lined up. Testing it at room temp will give completely different results vs. 900 degrees. The best way to seal stainless tubes (other than welding) is to have a tube inside a tube type joint. On a V-band, some come with a little locator ridge that is meant to keep the two flanges aligned, but because the fit is usually sloppy they can't do much sealing. I don't like that style I like the simple flat flanges. With the flat flanges you can let the tube pass completely through the first flange and part way into the second.

locator left, flat right.

Here is an exagerated view of how the flat flanges should be used. The arrow indicates the direction of exhaust flow. Notice the first tube passes through into the second flange. Ideally the fit between the OD of the tube should be tight to the ID of the flanges. Two things happen here.
The first tube is usually hotter than the second flange, so it expands and seals that way. This is also how slip joints from Burns and SPD are designed to work. They sell complete slip on collectors that work just fine in turbo applications.
The second, more minor thing, is exhaust gasses have to pass back upstream to make it out of the flange.

 

[Toby_Goodmk]

Mike,

I have been expressing and explaining your points that you present above. I have always questioned the position of my vband in relation with the "tube" metal stock that should insert into the female portion inside the header. I didnt have any real quality pictures till recently to share. You can see the lack of metal tube that was not entering the drivers header due to the angle of the tube. The new crossover should be even across and allowed to enter the header to help sealing. I think this is where the noise was apparent. By the time a gasket was used, there was literally no metal tube going into the drivers header.

 

[turbo89]

I don't come here often, but I've been watching this thread. Seeing the picture in post 121 brings this thought to me. The V-bands themselves aren't meant to do 100% of the sealing. It's near impossible to keep that surface 100% flat when welding it on. And because stainless grows so much it's hard to keep things like that lined up. Testing it at room temp will give completely different results vs. 900 degrees. The best way to seal stainless tubes (other than welding) is to have a tube inside a tube type joint. On a V-band, some come with a little locator ridge that is meant to keep the two flanges aligned, but because the fit is usually sloppy they can't do much sealing. I don't like that style I like the simple flat flanges. With the flat flanges you can let the tube pass completely through the first flange and part way into the second.

locator left, flat right.

Here is an exagerated view of how the flat flanges should be used. The arrow indicates the direction of exhaust flow. Notice the first tube passes through into the second flange. Ideally the fit between the OD of the tube should be tight to the ID of the flanges. Two things happen here.
The first tube is usually hotter than the second flange, so it expands and seals that way. This is also how slip joints from Burns and SPD are designed to work. They sell complete slip on collectors that work just fine in turbo applications.
The second, more minor thing, is exhaust gasses have to pass back upstream to make it out of the flange.

View attachment 296854

This X 2 ... which is why i mentioned design issue .. ive always used this arrangement that Mikes posted and Never had a sealing issue .. as soon as the car reaches temp .. they seal

 

[turbo89]

Mike,

I have been expressing and explaining your points that you present above. I have always questioned the position of my vband in relation with the "tube" metal stock that should insert into the female portion inside the header. I didnt have any real quality pictures till recently to share. You can see the lack of metal tube that was not entering the drivers header due to the angle of the tube. The new crossover should be even across and allowed to enter the header to help sealing. I think this is where the noise was apparent. By the time a gasket was used, there was literally no metal tube going into the drivers header. View attachment 296855

That is a cheated cut or bend.. its a No No .. if this was done on a jig .. never could have happened.. maybe its a fluke or the fabricator was having a off day .. but the match up with the vband and mating pipe isnt right