Taking a Stock Engine with Stock Turbo to the limit....

[achalmersman]

93 alky , e85 would help but its not readily available in central NJ

Same here. Really wish it was available.

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[Mr.Spool]

After contemplating this for a long time and having some debates about how to make the most power on a stock turbo, I've taken the leap and put together a stock engine to use with a stock turbo to see how fast I can go.

My car should be more than capable since it has all the supporting driveline, suspension, electronics, weight reduction, etc. Its more an exercise of how much power its possible to make and put down with better engine management, torque converters, tires, suspension, etc. My current motor with aluminum heads, big cam, etc wasn't the best match and is nothing near stock so I decided to go with a stockish engine instead.

I found a 109 engine local with stock pistons, rods, and uncut stock crank. At this point I figured might as well keep it as stock as possible and got my hands on some stock heads (with replacement valve springs) and also a stock cam setup. A stock intake was put on and a stock plenum and tb are ready to go on. While this is obviously not an unopened engine I did try to keep it as stock as possible. The only things not stock on the engine are a power plate and Felpro 9441 stock replacement head gaskets with ARP bolts. I have a stock turbo in excellent condition ready.

I will be using the exhaust and intercooler that were on my car, TA race headers with 3.5" external gate DP and a Cottons FMIC. I don't think the heads help any at this power level but I already have the external wastegate plumbed off the headers and want to use an external gate to control boost with CO2, plus I have various sensors all set up for logging. I want to keep the large IC to get rid of any restriction or pressure loss off of a stock IC to get the most out of the stock turbo. So this will be stock heads/cam/intake/turbo but not stock IC.

So the engine is primed and timed and should be going in pretty soon. Here is the list of the rest of my combo I will be using with this setup:

- XFI engine management with lots of data logging
- TA race headers, external wastegate, 3.5" DP, thru 3" dual exhaust
- Cottons FMIC setup
- TR6 ignition
- TH400 with PTC converter, tbrake, 3.23 gears
- full race suspension... TRZ front control arms, Baseline Susp w/ solid rear control arms, TRZ anti roll bar

The goal is to see how fast I can go on this setup with the stock turbo. If I can get the 60fts down and can get in the neighborhood of 400rwhp then the stock turbo record of 11.37 could be within reach.....

Any comments will be appreciated as this will be a work in progress throughout the year. Pics to follow.

At 3000lbs and with your knowledge of the cars I think your going to fly.looking forward to this thread.

 

[turbotroy]

Subscribed!

 

[murphster]

I think the car is close to 3100 right now with me in it. I've been thinking I could do a couple minor things and bring it up to 3200lbs which is a TSM legal weight for iron heads, but I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm pretty sure it would be TSM legal too, so you can use those rules as a guideline for what is done to the car. Its not like its a gutted shell or anything and the interior looks stock except for race seats. Sure there are obvious weight saving things done, but the average person would be hard pressed to see where all the weight went compared to a 3400-3500lb car.

 

[Mark T-TB]

Lookin' forward to following your progress on this. Sounds like you and Paul will be having some fun
Good luck with everything.

 

[bison]

Put a 150hp shot on it


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[fast86gn]

Subscribed. Several several years ago went 12.0 @ 110mph on a stock Turbo, 24-25lbs of boost 25 degrees of timing, stock DP w/dump, Bluetops, Stock IC w/Duttweiler neck. I'm sure I was lean as hell. Race weight 3795 with me in it. Good luck

 

[murphster]

That's some decent power at that weight. I was in the 3600s before I started removing weight, without the spare tire and lightweight Centerline wheels. After my second pump went one time I went to a fuel cell setup a buddy had and also did front and rear fiberglass bumpers that got me into the 3400s. Never did get this car into the 11s on the stock turbo at the time (mainly because of a real inefficient converter with a bad turbo) but did take two other cars barely into the 11s at almost 3700 lbs. Was going mid 11s on a bigger turbo with all stock stuff and put a stocker back on to try for 11s and it blew apart on the track lol.

 

[smokingunz]

cool project, look forward to seeing your progress!

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[MCH86GN]

After contemplating this for a long time and having some debates about how to make the most power on a stock turbo, I've taken the leap and put together a stock engine to use with a stock turbo to see how fast I can go.

My car should be more than capable since it has all the supporting driveline, suspension, electronics, weight reduction, etc. Its more an exercise of how much power its possible to make and put down with better engine management, torque converters, tires, suspension, etc. My current motor with aluminum heads, big cam, etc wasn't the best match and is nothing near stock so I decided to go with a stockish engine instead.

I found a 109 engine local with stock pistons, rods, and uncut stock crank. At this point I figured might as well keep it as stock as possible and got my hands on some stock heads (with replacement valve springs) and also a stock cam setup. A stock intake was put on and a stock plenum and tb are ready to go on. While this is obviously not an unopened engine I did try to keep it as stock as possible. The only things not stock on the engine are a power plate and Felpro 9441 stock replacement head gaskets with ARP bolts. I have a stock turbo in excellent condition ready.

I will be using the exhaust and intercooler that were on my car, TA race headers with 3.5" external gate DP and a Cottons FMIC. I don't think the heads help any at this power level but I already have the external wastegate plumbed off the headers and want to use an external gate to control boost with CO2, plus I have various sensors all set up for logging. I want to keep the large IC to get rid of any restriction or pressure loss off of a stock IC to get the most out of the stock turbo. So this will be stock heads/cam/intake/turbo but not stock IC.

So the engine is primed and timed and should be going in pretty soon. Here is the list of the rest of my combo I will be using with this setup:

- XFI engine management with lots of data logging
- TA race headers, external wastegate, 3.5" DP, thru 3" dual exhaust
- Cottons FMIC setup
- TR6 ignition
- TH400 with PTC converter, tbrake, 3.23 gears
- full race suspension... TRZ front control arms, Baseline Susp w/ solid rear control arms, TRZ anti roll bar

The goal is to see how fast I can go on this setup with the stock turbo. If I can get the 60fts down and can get in the neighborhood of 400rwhp then the stock turbo record of 11.37 could be within reach.....

Any comments will be appreciated as this will be a work in progress throughout the year. Pics to follow.

Can I ask how much your vehicle weighs with driver? EDIT I found the answer, good luck.
Good luck, I was going to attempt this years ago, but with my vehicle at 3800lbs with me in it and a TE49 with the rest stock the best I could get was 11.88 with the stock heads and IC. I had Champion ported put on after popping a gasket and I think my best was 11.70. However, I was having trouble keeping the boost at 24psi on the high end when I ran that time. I launched and was quickly at 24 psi and by the time I trapped I was at 17psi. I was using WINALDL for my data logging at the time.

 

[Wahoo]

Pretty cool thing to try. I think race gas and alky, maybe try with and without intercooler to see what helps, definitely have to have to tune right. Get a converter for that th400 from Dave husek, he made mine with the hi flow mod, I enjoy it, probably around a 3000-3200 stall.

 

[TurboBob]

ken white went 11.78 (I think) on a stock engine, stock turbo , stock intercooler this year.

Bob

 

[murphster]

ken white went 11.78 (I think) on a stock engine, stock turbo , stock intercooler this year.

Bob

I was following him and his times. I think he's only run 1/8th mile since Bowling Green where he went 12.0. He now has the 1/8th to run 11.6-11.7 though. Very impressive for sure.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

I went 11.74@114.8 with a stock turbo and engine with a powerstroke intercooler. Converter was a crappy low stall reman unit, wouldnt spool, 1.8 60'. This was at 3550lbs. The car previously went 12.0@111 with the stock intercooler.

 

[murphster]

Thats cool, seems like there are more people that have gone 11-7-11.8 than I know. 11.6 and faster seems to be rarefied air though. How long ago did you run that?

 

[seedling]

This is a cool arsed thread to follow! So subscribed!!


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[Jerryl]

@murphster
I realize you know exactly what to do and IMHO, it will come down to 4 things:
Exh Drive pressure
IC Pressure drop
Converter slip
Combustion pressure

Between yourself and Paul . . . I see a record coming up.

 

[murphster]

Like forcefeds times show, I think the stock intercooler becomes a big factor because of the pressure loss across it. A good fmic with large pipes will have negligible pressure loss at that power level as some data has shown.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about this means you may have to get 30psi at the turbo to get 25psi after the stock intercooler vs 26psi at the turbo to get 25psi after a large fmic. And better yet 30psi at the turbo could get you 29psi after a large fmic. Alky will be able to cool the intake charge so the main goal is to get as much air in regardless of temp. And a fmic has better cooling on top of it anyway.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Thats cool, seems like there are more people that have gone 11-7-11.8 than I know. 11.6 and faster seems to be rarefied air though. How long ago did you run that?

And probably around the same race weight.i have seen race gas high timing of 30degrees and lower boost 23psi run 11.8s years age and we put together a pump gas alky that ran the same number but 30psi and 20 degrees of timing.there is the power wall where it just won't go faster and stop really gaining out the back.

 

[murphster]

@murphster
I realize you know exactly what to do and IMHO, it will come down to 4 things:
Exh Drive pressure
IC Pressure drop
Converter slip
Combustion pressure

Between yourself and Paul . . . I see a record coming up.

I'm hoping my converter works out but we'll see... Starting off with 28" tires and my 3.23 gears will keep the rpms down on the top end. Its a lot of load down low though and prob would hurt a heavy car for sure. So if I can get out of the hole good with the tbrake and run a good 1/8th the rest of the 1/4 should be good to go... I don't even need 5000 rpm out the back if you run the numbers.

Another thing is that XFI allows a lot more tuning vs most of the past good runs on a stock chip. A lot of people were able to maximize power by trial and error burning new chips but the feedback of a modern engine control unit allows it be done a lot quicker. I also log a lot of extra parameters that will tell me whats going on and hopefully I can make use of it and will share the data when the time comes.