The Only 3300 lb. Buick V6 in the 8s using...

[Fryguy]

I know there are a lot of DonWG haters that want to portray me as bagging on John's car. Quite the opposite. I think John is showing a lot of others out there how to get it done. And you know what? He's not a hater, and he's not a TB.com Troll. For that sort of fella, I hold the utmost respect for him. He is a fine example of the type of person that should be representing the Buick community.

Doesn't word "hater" imply some type of envy or jealousy? If that's the case, I'm pretty sure you can relax. There are no DonWG "haters"

 

[Alky V6]

Doesn't word "hater" imply some type of envy or jealousy? If that's the case, I'm pretty sure you can relax. There are no DonWG "haters"

Then you're simply a Weiner Troll. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Fryguy]

Then you're simply a Weiner Troll. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Alky V6]

lol Silly troll.

Should have saved that one in your bag of troll tricks. Sorry, doesn't apply. Troll fails again.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

You may think I'm hating but truth is I'm just telling you what you don't want to hear.

Your performance is not based on pulse tuning. You have created a combo through a lot of sim work that does indeed maximize hp with your cylinder head, which is exactly what you set out to do. It's everything that adds up. Oxygenated fuel and back-pressure less than 1:1 being the leading contributors here. The problem for everyone is it's not practical to use for anyone other than someone racing T&T events against themselves. Class racers are limited by turbo size and the T&T guys would rather swap heads than install and tune a nitrous system to spool an oversized turbo. When 99% of the people go to the track they enjoy racing someone. When they pop the hood and see a 71mm turbo they aren't as intimidated as they are when you have a 91mm turbo. A car with a 91mm is expected to go much faster than 5.50's and a car with a 71mm is expected to go much slower than 5.70's. People don't care what size valves you use. All they care about is "how big is your turbo"

My 1st experience with turbos and back pressure was when I swapped from a 94mm to a 106mm. The 106mm at the same boost pressure was consuming more # per hr of fuel and running more mph. So I began wondering why. The answer was the pressure on the turbine side along with the compressor side working more efficently. Just like you can make more power with a 91mm at 25psi than anyone can with a 71mm at 25psi. It has nothing to do with pulse tuning, it has everything to do with efficiency and back pressure.

The only other application for this is with the street racing crowd where no one knows the turbo size. They've been using nitrous and big turbos for years. And no one knows how fast they are.

 

[Street Lethal]

The answer was the pressure on the turbine side along with the compressor side working more efficently. Just like you can make more power with a 91mm at 25psi than anyone can with a 71mm at 25psi...

But Dusty, more efficiently would just mean at a cooler air temperature, no? Unless your saying that @ 25-psi, a 91mm will make more power than a 71mm... with the very same air intake temperature?

 

[baadgn]

Then you're simply a Weiner Troll. Thanks for clarifying that.

Well, its better than being a "wangnut"

Urban Dictionary: wangnut

p.s I agree with #3

 

[Dusty Bradford]

But Dusty, more efficiently would just mean at a cooler air temperature, no? Unless your saying that @ 25-psi, a 91mm will make more power than a 71mm... with the very same air intake temperature?

The compressor side is the small piece of the pie...very small. The big piece of the pie is on the turbine side. At 25 psi the 71mm has 40psi back pressure, the 91mm has 16psi for example. That is where the power is.

 

[Alky V6]

You may think I'm hating but truth is I'm just telling you what you don't want to hear.

Your performance is not based on pulse tuning. You have created a combo through a lot of sim work that does indeed maximize hp with your cylinder head, which is exactly what you set out to do. It's everything that adds up. Oxygenated fuel and back-pressure less than 1:1 being the leading contributors here. The problem for everyone is it's not practical to use for anyone other than someone racing T&T events against themselves. Class racers are limited by turbo size and the T&T guys would rather swap heads than install and tune a nitrous system to spool an oversized turbo. When 99% of the people go to the track they enjoy racing someone. When they pop the hood and see a 71mm turbo they aren't as intimidated as they are when you have a 91mm turbo. A car with a 91mm is expected to go much faster than 5.50's and a car with a 71mm is expected to go much slower than 5.70's. People don't care what size valves you use. All they care about is "how big is your turbo"

My 1st experience with turbos and back pressure was when I swapped from a 94mm to a 106mm. The 106mm at the same boost pressure was consuming more # per hr of fuel and running more mph. So I began wondering why. The answer was the pressure on the turbine side along with the compressor side working more efficently. Just like you can make more power with a 91mm at 25psi than anyone can with a 71mm at 25psi. It has nothing to do with pulse tuning, it has everything to do with efficiency and back pressure.

The only other application for this is with the street racing crowd where no one knows the turbo size. They've been using nitrous and big turbos for years. And no one knows how fast they are.

Glad to see you're finally coming around.

 

[Alky V6]

Thinking back when I was working with the sim to come up with something that would do the best job of making up for the shortcomings of the heads, it was, of course, the camshaft specifications. Relying on duration and lift to maximize area under the curve, and overlap in hopes of doing the best job of purging the chamber of residual exhaust for improved VE.
The exhaust manifold specs gave the overlap spec of the camshaft the best shot at purging the chamber using pulse tuning to improve VE.
The turbine side of the turbo gave me low exhaust back pressure which allowed me to achieve crossover in the chamber which only helped the exhaust manifolding to make the best of the overlap spec of the camshaft, improving VE.
The size of the compressor side of the turbo allowed it to run at highest efficiency during max load, improving VE.
The alcohol fuel helped cool the intake charge, making for a denser charge, improving VE.
The nitrous let me get away with all the above specifications by providing the best sort of ALS.
The short stroke slowed intake port velocity which, along with the intake duration, allowed me to obtain a higher engine rpm from the heads and have good power clear up to redline.

I guess in the end it wasn't just one thing that put these small valved heads deep in the 8s.
It was everything.

Dusty. Remember this post? Page 4, post #130.
Not too sure why you think I don't want to hear it. :biggrin:

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Your performance is not based on pulse tuning.

Oxygenated fuel and back-pressure less than 1:1 being the leading contributors here.

Just pointing this out.

 

[Street Lethal]

The compressor side is the small piece of the pie...very small. The big piece of the pie is on the turbine side. At 25 psi the 71mm has 40psi back pressure, the 91mm has 16psi for example. That is where the power is...

I understand what your saying now, it is more than just the denser air, but a matter of efficiency in a whole. As we lower target psi down to say 12-psi instead of 25-psi, then the 71mm soon falls into its efficiency range (less back pressure, and quicker spool) unless they somehow still fall into the same efficiency range at 12-psi, then the 91mm will resume its dominance...

 

[Fryguy]

Don's next masterpiece:

 

[Street Lethal]

Don's next masterpiece...

.... lunch break?

[video=youtube;9UWq26V01po]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UWq26V01po[/video]

 

[Alky V6]

Just pointing this out.

Yes. I would agree that those items helped a lot. You've been very well aware for a long time now that obtaining better than 1:1 was an important goal of mine. I think you finally figured that out in my tuned turbo exhaust manifolding thread in the fabrication section.

The advantage of using methanol fuel goes without saying. :biggrin: Although, racing gasoline manufacturers will argue you to death that advances in racing gasoline will yield similar or better results to using methanol fuel.

 

[RIFF RAFF]

Lethal go back to 1967 that video fits better .. Such a happy place ..not ... Anymore that is ..

 

[Street Lethal]

You've been very well aware for a long time now that obtaining better than 1:1 was an important goal of mine. I think you finally figured that out in my tuned turbo exhaust manifolding thread in the fabrication section...

Now I can definitely see why you opted for smaller valves...

 

[Street Lethal]

Lethal go back to 1967 that video fits better .. Such a happy place ..not ... Anymore that is ..

I know, if I showed you what they're like around here you would puke, believe me...

 

[Alky V6]

Don's next masterpiece:

Nice.
Everyone should take the time to pat themselves on the back for a job well done, now and then.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I understand what your saying now, it is more than just the denser air, but a matter of efficiency in a whole. As we lower target psi down to say 12-psi instead of 25-psi, then the 71mm soon falls into its efficiency range (less back pressure, and quicker spool) unless they somehow still fall into the same efficiency range at 12-psi, then the 91mm will resume its dominance...

Your still looking at the wrong side of the engine:biggrin:

The 91mm will still make more hp at 12psi. Not because of compressor efficiency but because the pressure on the exhaust side is lower. Sure there is a little hp difference by running the compressor side more efficiently but we're talking minor...exhaust back pressure is major.

Roll your motor over with the plugs out of the heads. Now put 40psi of pressure on 1 cylinder and see if you can turn it over. This is the pressure your piston is working against to push the exhaust out of the cylinder. That is power.

When you take a 427ci small block with a 106mm making 35psi and 70psi back pressure. Replace the 106mm with twin 88's making the same 35psi. The 200hp gain doesn't come from the compressor side making colder air...it comes from dropping the back pressure from 70psi to 40psi.