To much zinc ???
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[quote="HighMileage, ]So how much ZDDP would be too much? [/quote]
Quote: "At about 0.20% phosphorus the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."
Source: http://forums.aaca.org/attachments/...c-other-myths-engine-oil-mythology-2-2007.pdf
Quote: "At about 0.20% phosphorus the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."
Source: http://forums.aaca.org/attachments/...c-other-myths-engine-oil-mythology-2-2007.pdf
hello people; I've been using M1 for a bit and I have not been adding any additive. I don't know what cam is in it but I believe it's stock. With the M1 I don't think it matters if you add the Z or not. I am going to start as I'm prepping to do so. But to others running a syn oil are you using the Z?
IBBY
IBBY
If you have an original cam train, it's fully work hardened and made of quality metals. It'll wear out when it wears out. It's not a ticking time bomb.
All the voodoo, extra zinc, crossing fingers and whatnot are a byproduct of trying to make the current inferior parts live. Throw in a set of really stiff springs and extremely intensive ramp rates, and it's a recipe for disaster.
All the voodoo, extra zinc, crossing fingers and whatnot are a byproduct of trying to make the current inferior parts live. Throw in a set of really stiff springs and extremely intensive ramp rates, and it's a recipe for disaster.
There is a lot of truth to this, I believe. I rode 2 strokes from the early 70s, and still have one today (bikes). And I must have heard a million stories about oils for the premix. The only one I ever saw that was bad was one guy I no who said oil is oil and mixed up some gas with some 10w-40. It actually lasted a little while longer than I expected. Damn near the whole day. I think after reading all of these different replies, what I got out of it, is go with what works best. This car has been running on Mobil 1 since the 80s and why change something that works. I may still use a couple of oz's of oil additive, but up until a couple of years ago this motor only saw oil and there's no clicking or ticking. And my whole goal is to keep it that way.
I've replaced several worn cams over the years. All had extremely worn #3 ex. Other lobes were worn but not as badly. None of the owners of those cars added a zinc additive. Some had less than 100K. Some had stock springs.
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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Bison speaks the truth^. Bottom line FT cams need ZDDP.......Period.
In the big picture are you going to roll the dice with wiping the cam and sending all those metal filings through the engine and F it all up. Its simply not worth it IMO.
Add a bottle of additive or run oil thats robust and designed for FT engines.
FACT is the oils today cover a broad spectrum of engines since 97ish period and guess what......engines in that time frame are all dam near NOT FT.
So do you think the oil companies are making oil mostly to cover FT?
NO ...they are making it for todays engines which have roller tappets.
Zddp package depletes over the oil use so it needs to be robust in the beginning to cover the whole use time. You start off with the max amount allowed in the new oils SM,SN grade and they have a zddp limit on oil that is labeled SM,SN.
Just know you maybe ok in the start of the oil change but its not good enough through the whole usage cycle. Add better springs and wearing oil system, unsure maint past practices from teh prior owner and the likely hood of "UH OH" factor rises.
Having a small fortune in my current engine I run Valvoline VR1 and still always use half a bottle of ZDDP even tho I have a roller cam. I see it as insurance and not worth ruining a engine over a few petty bucks on a oil additive. And always ran good oil and additive when it was the stock FT setup as well.
Go ahead and run whatever oil without the proper zddp and a FT cam and play with fire.... Just like running high boost with pump gas.......go ahead ....good luck with that.
Beating a Deadhorse
In the big picture are you going to roll the dice with wiping the cam and sending all those metal filings through the engine and F it all up. Its simply not worth it IMO.
Add a bottle of additive or run oil thats robust and designed for FT engines.
FACT is the oils today cover a broad spectrum of engines since 97ish period and guess what......engines in that time frame are all dam near NOT FT.
So do you think the oil companies are making oil mostly to cover FT?
NO ...they are making it for todays engines which have roller tappets.
Zddp package depletes over the oil use so it needs to be robust in the beginning to cover the whole use time. You start off with the max amount allowed in the new oils SM,SN grade and they have a zddp limit on oil that is labeled SM,SN.
Just know you maybe ok in the start of the oil change but its not good enough through the whole usage cycle. Add better springs and wearing oil system, unsure maint past practices from teh prior owner and the likely hood of "UH OH" factor rises.
Having a small fortune in my current engine I run Valvoline VR1 and still always use half a bottle of ZDDP even tho I have a roller cam. I see it as insurance and not worth ruining a engine over a few petty bucks on a oil additive. And always ran good oil and additive when it was the stock FT setup as well.
Go ahead and run whatever oil without the proper zddp and a FT cam and play with fire.... Just like running high boost with pump gas.......go ahead ....good luck with that.
Beating a Deadhorse
m233roller
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Well I guess I'll get my two cents in here & get eaten alive. First off ANY metal to metal parts need zinc. I also find it kind of amusing that lots of guys say use this oil, use that oil. Hell the manufacture says it's well fortified with zinc & phosphorus !!
BUT !! NO body talks numbers !! I have personally talked to several oil company reps about their oil and they couldn't even tell me the parts per million that's safe. Guys I've had several top brands of oil analyzed by a long time analyst business here and NONE of them came up with the recommended amount of zinc & phosphorus that RICHARD CLARK recommends you need. Now Richard spent thousands & thousands of his dollars in R&D to develop his ZDDP and he states you will need right at 1800 PPM for safe coverage, Turbo nasty I too run Valvoline VR-1 and love the oil but it didn't even make the numbers when I tested it 3 different times and I did the testing on new oil and oil that I ran for 1000 miles so I too ad a half of bottle of ZDDP to my roller engine. I will not divulge any other brands as I'm not going to start a pissing match on brands of oil. So guys I know you have tons of money in your Buick so why even temp fate?? As far as ALL the other products that have hit the market as a zinc additive for us I don't know??? Richard spent BIG moneys to develop his ZDDP and that's what I use & will continue to use. I'm NOT posting this to start any BS I'm just trying to help you understand what you need for good protection OK ? Thanks Mike
PS. All my testing was done by Oil Analysis Lab, Inc. here in Spokane, WA.
BUT !! NO body talks numbers !! I have personally talked to several oil company reps about their oil and they couldn't even tell me the parts per million that's safe. Guys I've had several top brands of oil analyzed by a long time analyst business here and NONE of them came up with the recommended amount of zinc & phosphorus that RICHARD CLARK recommends you need. Now Richard spent thousands & thousands of his dollars in R&D to develop his ZDDP and he states you will need right at 1800 PPM for safe coverage, Turbo nasty I too run Valvoline VR-1 and love the oil but it didn't even make the numbers when I tested it 3 different times and I did the testing on new oil and oil that I ran for 1000 miles so I too ad a half of bottle of ZDDP to my roller engine. I will not divulge any other brands as I'm not going to start a pissing match on brands of oil. So guys I know you have tons of money in your Buick so why even temp fate?? As far as ALL the other products that have hit the market as a zinc additive for us I don't know??? Richard spent BIG moneys to develop his ZDDP and that's what I use & will continue to use. I'm NOT posting this to start any BS I'm just trying to help you understand what you need for good protection OK ? Thanks Mike
PS. All my testing was done by Oil Analysis Lab, Inc. here in Spokane, WA.
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Mike Regarding your VR-1 findings ^ ^ ^ How short was it? I've been adding the 1/2 bottle to my VR-1 as well...but..i run a flatty with a lot (115Lbs) of spring. sounds like a full bottle may be advised...which goes back to the original topic of " how much is too much ?
m233roller
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turbocamino1 PM me & I'll give you some numbers.
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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M233 My findings with VR1 came up with the same.
As far as the ZDDP goes we are telling them ...but .....you can lead a horse to water.. LOL
As far as the ZDDP goes we are telling them ...but .....you can lead a horse to water.. LOL
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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Run the full bottle
Remember that if the rating is SM,SL its HAS to have limit on the ZDDP, cause the oil companies will get there azzes in a serious mess from cat conv contamination from having it outside the limit for SM,SL rated limit.
Your only saving 5 bucks by using half the bottle. The cam dies and it will be a helluva lot more chedda than 5 bucks to fix it.
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i'm with you there...and i will do a full bottle. I'm too lazy to find it but i recall a post a while back about what too much can do though. I recall Richard C commenting....cant recall exactly....other than the cat ,maybe affected lobe face?
626gn
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One bottle of ZDDPlus costs $9.95. It's even cheaper if you buy in bulk. For all the money we spend on our cars on go fast parts and maintenance stuff, this is chump change. Add it to your oil and don't look back.
m233roller
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Ok,
turbocamino1 and turbo nasty. Some of my testing was on a roller engine and I had upwards of 2200 PPM of zinc when VR-1 racing oil was tested after 1000 miles of driving and track passes. This was with one full bottle of ZDDP in it. Put 38,000 miles on that engine and when I sold it it still looked new inside and NO issues what so ever. Now I only put half a bottle in my roller engine. 10,000 miles and going strong.
turbocamino1 and turbo nasty. Some of my testing was on a roller engine and I had upwards of 2200 PPM of zinc when VR-1 racing oil was tested after 1000 miles of driving and track passes. This was with one full bottle of ZDDP in it. Put 38,000 miles on that engine and when I sold it it still looked new inside and NO issues what so ever. Now I only put half a bottle in my roller engine. 10,000 miles and going strong.
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Glad to hear the 1800ppm need is well covered....great info, thanks
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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Outstanding......Richard Clark is a straight shooter and the product flat works and does as advertised.
Just adding my .02
I use to use Mobile 1 full syn this is back when I was running flat tappets.
Since I have gone roller I started using the VR-1 I change my oil every 3 k or so or when it starts looking used. My car does not see a lot of miles.
I had the engine apart a few year back to freshen it up after a head gasket let to. I put in all new bearings and rings just because I was there. They were really ok but a few pieces of trash went through the mains. Honestly the cylinder walls and cam looked great.
I also use the same oil in my Vette. Old school small block Chevy with a solid flat tapper so lots of spring pressure and no roller. That engine has been together for 10 years and I beat the snot out of it!!!!! It also sits for 3-4 weeks at a time without running....... Much more than that I try to start it get it warm and circulate the oil.
I every now and then toss a bottle of Lucas in both cars....... I run that stuff in my truck and the wife's car.
No problems and zero failures since switching to VR-1
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I use to use Mobile 1 full syn this is back when I was running flat tappets.
Since I have gone roller I started using the VR-1 I change my oil every 3 k or so or when it starts looking used. My car does not see a lot of miles.
I had the engine apart a few year back to freshen it up after a head gasket let to. I put in all new bearings and rings just because I was there. They were really ok but a few pieces of trash went through the mains. Honestly the cylinder walls and cam looked great.
I also use the same oil in my Vette. Old school small block Chevy with a solid flat tapper so lots of spring pressure and no roller. That engine has been together for 10 years and I beat the snot out of it!!!!! It also sits for 3-4 weeks at a time without running....... Much more than that I try to start it get it warm and circulate the oil.
I every now and then toss a bottle of Lucas in both cars....... I run that stuff in my truck and the wife's car.
No problems and zero failures since switching to VR-1
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
hello people; I've asked this before with RMI and really didn't get an answer but what is the shelf life of RMI and Z? I've collected a few bottles of each and I hope they don't go south before I get t use them. Also don't worry about starting a pissing contest as if your experiance is differant and what you worked for you post it. But there is someone here I'd like to piss on.
IBBY
IBBY
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