TSO Player

[EightSecV6]

Originally posted by HighPSI
The car was illegal (if not the turbo, then the exhaust), and he elected to let them run.

Cal,
Would you have put up the same argument for the turbo if Dave had not broken? We were willing to fix the exh if we HAD to, I think Pete's entry kept us from having to do that.

 

[JCotton]

Wow,

this one is not going the way it should, I hope we can get on track and have some positive conversation. It's late and I think I'll sleep on this one, maybe tackle it tomorrow.

Oh ya.... thats some funny stuff Tonto..... I mean Cal.

 

[Joe Lubrant]

Originally posted by EightSecV6
Joe, I dont know why you are so pissed? You won get over it! Do you or do you not plan to run in BG TSO for 2006? If you do, keep lobbiying for rule changes that will build the class around your car.

If not... your argument, comments, rule changes or whatever the hell you want to call it are absolutely worthless . As far as you not knowing what turbo we were using, total BS! READ MY POST in THIS thread from April 21, I made it clear to YOU what turbo we were going to run, read it again.

You know...I still chose to treat you with respect (as my elder and for no other reason!) in the staging lanes when you attempted to berate me and talk down to me during the peer tech as anyone there will attest to. I ingnored the BS you posted here as well but here you go once again with the cheap shots about the exhaust and hood. I no longer respect your arrogance, comments or you in general.I congratulated you on the win and the car, you elected to smear my face in it....WHY?The gloves are off, if you have no other intent than to get Jeff's car thrown out of the class you have entirely too much time on your hands.

Why dont you tell us all what it's like to race an 8 second car? how 'bout a 9 second car? IN FACT have you EVER made a 10 second pass?

_______________________________________________________________
QUOTED by Bill A. ..April 21, 2005
Lets not forget to mention the LIMITED AVAILABILITY of the "new" mid-frame PT88.It is apparently only out there for testing but it will still be run in the class at BG simply because it is not any different appearing than what we have been allowed to run. It is allowed to be used and fits into the rules perfectly How many different frames are there? My race car definately has a Thumper style 98 on it, it is to be considered a large frame? The GT47-88 appears to be the same size as the Y2K turbo permitted to be used in the class which is on a smaller frame than a Thumper style such as mine. I dont want to sound like a crybaby but I dont plan on coming to a hatchet fight with a broken handle... Theoretically speaking, for example, if stage 2 heads were owned by only 1 or 2 racers and they were not available to anyone else, they would not be allowed either.
_________________________________________________________________________


Bill I believe this is the post you are referring to?

Based on what you said, you did not say definitely the usage of the “new” mid-frame PT88 or GT4788.
“Just that you you didn’t intend to come to a hatchet fight with a broken handle”

As you stated there was limited availabity on the PT88 (new) mid-frame, one of which was on Cal’s car at BG. Testing was completed by Cal prior to the Nats, and he also elected to run that turbo at the Nats.

Based on that assumption I ASSumed the turbo was available to those that wanted to run it in the class.

Since you dealt with Harry directly, I was not aware/or informed that you elected to run the 4788. I ASSumed that he would also provide you with the “New” PT88 mid-frame. That fit the rules exactly as you stated above.

So all I can say it didn’t raise anything out of the ordinary or red flags to me at that time. As you could see I could easily misconstrue what your intention was as far a specific turbo usage.

I am not Pissed at you Bill…….I am totally Pissed over the whole Turbo Issue for the class and that it possibly could have been avoided.

I guess I will have to take the blame for it! So be it!

Cal, No I was not talking about your car. It was just a General Statement about any car in the class set on Kill++ and falls to some type of misfortune/damage. It was not meant as a personal dig to anyone in particular…..I just can’t believe the carnage that happens to our cars at this performance level. That’s why I believe we need to put the brakes on the class, until some dependability/reliability can be attained. If this is wrong thing to do then I stand corrected

Bill to answer some of your other questions: Yes I have driven my first 10 second car at Atco Dragway in 1969 & 70, Big Block Vett had a lot of money in that puppy. Pretty scary back then when use of wrinkle walls were sort of new. Use to see & talk with Bill Jenkins all the time. My Car 10.0-10.1 in 1997 BG Nats Super 16 Qualifier—4 way tie do to rain out. Of course it started to rain at the big end of the track before they knew it in the tower…the car slid towards the wall, but I managed to keep the car under control at about 132++, Brown spots in my shorts for sure. Believe some of that run was on the 1997 BG Nationals Tape that was commercially available I do have a copy. Managed a few 9 sec passes at local track. You do have me though on the 8-sec deal no excuse for me not to try.

Of course it doesn’t take away from my passion for drag racing. I have been involved since 1965 when I started with a 65 Chevelle small block that ran .02 (12.87)off the record at that time in C/S.

I,of course will continue to do what I can in any capacity to be involved wth racing. Whether it be driving, Eng. Management tuning, or assisting other racers with there set-ups/combo's

 

[Nick Micale]

turbo rules????

Originally posted by HighPSI
..........I was honest with Billy and Jeff when I told them that if it came to a vote, they would be out. Unfortunatly (or fortunatly), the ultimate decision was up to Nick. The car was illegal (if not the turbo, then the exhaust), and he elected to let them run. Even though my buddy Louie was sent packing from TSE because of his tires..........................................................................................................................I am on the rules committee for next year and will make sure the rules are quite clear in TSO and TSE. I hope to have another thread (like last year) on either Jack's board or the GSCA's for all of us to come up with a game plan. Whatever everyone decides will be clear in the rules, and on raceday there won't be any exceptions.
......................................

This entire thread has brought up many issues about class rules that need to, and WILL be, rectified for next year's event.

First of all, it will be a Buick Musclecar Nationals event, not a GSCA event. This means ALL rules will be new! We will follow the pattern of the now extinct GSCA rules, so now is the time to correct and clarify as necessary.

This year as race director my job was [and still is] to schedule and execute the race program as well as interpret rules in any dispute.

First dispute was Louie's tires. They were wider than the rule PLAINLY stated, and he was told he could participate with legal tires. He was good with this and would have competed except for a leaking freeze plug.

Next came the exhaust exit in front of the rear tire, not in the stock location. The TSO rule states the exhaust must "exit at/behind the rear axle tube away from the car." The TSE rule states exhaust exit in "stock location". So my position was that is is a different rule for TSO which it does NOT specify stock or factory location. Therefore, the exhaust was legal.

For almost 8 months before the event the TSO turbo rule was discussed and beat like a wet dog. In the forums also I tried to make sense of how to define a "legal" turbo to no avail. After discussing this with TSO racers present, turbo venders present and the car owner, there was STILL no consus of why this particular turbo was not legal per current definition??????

At this point a decision was made, not a vote, that the car could compete in TSO. To preclude this from happening again, I stated to all concerned, next year's rules must be made in a manner to properly define a legal TSO turbo.

The rules making procedures will be set up in the very near future. It will NOT be done on the GSCA board. Those wishing to participate, please e-mail me direct, as it cannot be done in this thread either.

 

[Otto J]

Re: turbo rules????

Originally posted by Nick Micale

Next came the exhaust exit in front of the rear tire, not in the stock location. The TSO rule states the exhaust must "exit at/behind the rear axle tube away from the car." The TSE rule states exhaust exit in "stock location". So my position was that is is a different rule for TSO which it does NOT specify stock or factory location. Therefore, the exhaust was legal.

The exhaust in ? was in TSO.Not poking at you,Just stating the fact.The axle tube is center to the wheel,Not before it.

Nick should we make a section just for TSO rule discussion?Also its probably best to only use input from those who will be running it or have a car running in it.Its probably best to not have people that are not racing the class(not including yourself and Jan,Your input is needed)in on the rule making

 

[turbobuick]

LET'EM RUN

I haven't seen anything yet that I don't feel personally I can't compete against on the track. I have a dated turbo, out of the box heads and a cam the was ground 12 years ago. Eventually I feel S2 heads will hurt the class more than anything else but that has been decided long ago. TSO is for the fastest and the best. Most of the the enttrants are vendors or heavily backed by a vendor. The idea is to push the limits and see where we go. While I agree with Joe 100% on the turbo issue I still feel we should let these guys run and see what becomes of it.

While this is may be bold statement, I don't feel I was outgunned or had a combo that wasn't competive at the NATS. I didn't have a good showning simply becauses my program wasn't together as well as others. Joe had it all with consistency being the dominating factor, Congrats its well deserveed. If we have more than one race this may show to be more of an issue . If Jeff, Tony G, or Dave Fiscus show up and start laying down 8.30's with 1.20's 60's and .400 lights then I will have an opinion and a strong one at that. Untiil then lets push the envelope, find the limits and see what we can do with these amazing little motors we have.

 

[turbobuick]

Re: turbo rules????

Originally posted by Nick Micale
T
For almost 8 months before the event the TSO turbo rule was discussed and beat like a wet dog. In the forums also I tried to make sense of how to define a "legal" turbo to no avail. After discussing this with TSO racers present, turbo venders present and the car owner, there was STILL no consus of why this particular turbo was not legal per current definition??????

We need a list of accepted housings from the different manufacturers. This seems to be more of an issue than compressor size. This has not been furnished from turbnoetics, PTE, garrett, etc.

 

[turbobuick]

Originally posted by KLHAMMETT
Wasnt it in the rules somewhere that T4 from turbos got 150# weight break?
Cause i am currently putting my car on a diet and need to know my limit.I will not change this PTE GTS76 Turbo as i feel there is more left in it and the combo altogether.
I cant believe the power difference between it and the GTQ76 i ran last year
So i am going to work around it,Unless i use the stage 2 motor i have,Then maybe ill run the 88 with It

That was for the points series rules we were trying to get off the ground. The rules we are currently talking about are for the GSCA. I have no problem allowing a wieght break for a 76 T04.

 

[86brick]

Can of worms

Why not allow twin turbos in TSO?? Liquid intercoolers, Ladder bars (where is Ted A. when ya need him).....

Just kidding around

You should DEFINITELY keep out the pot stirers like me from this discussion

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Re: turbo rules????

Originally posted by Nick Micale
it will be a Buick Musclecar Nationals event, not a GSCA event.

on that note what will be involved with running next year

can anyone run in it without being a member of a club ?

also on a side note I say if there is going to be turbo wheel limits I feel like the current plug in the compressor should be fine for the small side of the wheel but if there is to be a limit on the big side of the wheel there needs to be a billet ring machined to the max diameter to see if it fits over the wheel with the cover removed

I stood there for the turbo debate after tsm and had there been a ring to slide over the wheel then there wouldnt have been reason not to pull the covers

I do plan to run at BG next year in the tsm class .. just figured since the rule makers are in this thread I'd speak up in here

Is there a discussion for next years tsm rules as Im doing more to the car I'll be bringing and want to be sure its built within the rules

 

[EightSecV6]

Originally posted by EightSecV6 on April 21
Joe...............
I do not want to be put in a position where I feel I am at a distinct disadvantage because I couldnt purchase a superior product that someone else has. You know what turbo we have, we intend to run it, if the 4 or 5 other guys in the same boat are not permitted to race in the class for whatever reason, it will be between 3 cars or so.
Do those headlight covers qualify as "factory body lines"? LOL!!!

Joe, my above post is the one I was referring to. I stand corrected, I ASSumed you knew what turbo we were going to run.

This whole thing has gotten way out of hand, I surely would like to have a part in the rules making decision as I hope everyone who intends to run the class does. There was a great turn out this year and I canonly hope TSO will grow.

I am sure turbo arguement is not over, instead of imposing more strict turbo rules, maybe a weight break for stock valve configuration heads vs S2 heads??????

The Buick races certianly are different but MOST other venues impose an exhaust restriction (like we do) and a compressor inlet size restriction (like we do not), generally speaking, the housing size doesnt really matter.

Really looking forward to get this all worked out.
Thanks

 

[S2V6RACER]

Re: Can of worms

Originally posted by 86brick
Why not allow twin turbos in TSO?? Liquid intercoolers, Ladder bars (where is Ted A. when ya need him).....

Just kidding around

You should DEFINITELY keep out the pot stirers like me from this discussion

This is none of my business. I will not lobby them anymore!!

 

[Ken H]

new pte 88

Can someone tell me more about this " new " pte88 turbo that was on Cal's car, and I will go ahead and assume on Joe's too? What are the details on it? Also why was it even being used if it wasn't on the market to everyone?

Odell asked about this earlier in the year before Bowling Green but I never did see a good answer as to what it truly is and what the true horsepower potential will be.

 

[NJTurbo]

Nick should we make a section just for TSO rule discussion

Otto this would have been done from the Nat's, however as you know we are done with the server and the software is next. Once completed, we will have an INVITE ONLY area for you guys to hammer all these questions out

Most on this thread have forgotten more than I know, however as a spectator TSO is an outlaw class, so IMO bring what you got and run the hell out of it. Providing it meets safety inspection

We as spectators want to see fast passes, all this polictical correctness kills the class. Bolt on what you can and give us a good show

 

[Joe Lubrant]

Originally posted by EightSecV6
Joe, my above post is the one I was referring to. I stand corrected, I ASSumed you knew what turbo we were going to run.

This whole thing has gotten way out of hand, I surely would like to have a part in the rules making decision as I hope everyone who intends to run the class does. There was a great turn out this year and I canonly hope TSO will grow.

I am sure turbo arguement is not over, instead of imposing more strict turbo rules, maybe a weight break for stock valve configuration heads vs S2 heads??????

The Buick races certianly are different but MOST other venues impose an exhaust restriction (like we do) and a compressor inlet size restriction (like we do not), generally speaking, the housing size doesnt really matter.

Really looking forward to get this all worked out.
Thanks

Bill,

Thanks for agreeing that I could have mis-understood your intentions.

I also agree that things did get way out of hand, and I pushed some buttons that I shouldn't have. I sometimes do that in the heat of the moment(s) and regret it later.

I hope we can bury the Hatchet and mend our relationship and move foward?

I'm sure things can be worked out for the class for parity. I'm sure you and I will contribute to this end if asked to do so.

 

[Joe Lubrant]

Re: new pte 88

Originally posted by Ken H
Can someone tell me more about this " new " pte88 turbo that was on Cal's car, and I will go ahead and assume on Joe's too? What are the details on it? Also why was it even being used if it wasn't on the market to everyone?

Odell asked about this earlier in the year before Bowling Green but I never did see a good answer as to what it truly is and what the true horsepower potential will be.

Ken,

First let me say that I did not use the "New" PT88 T4 Turbo. I elected to use the standard configuration that has been available for quite sometime.

The "New" PT88 T4 in a nutshell, utilizes the bearing housing, and complete rotating assembly (compressor & turbine wheels) from the full GT4788 turbo.
It is packaged in the familiar smaller Standard PT88 T4 turbine housing and Compressor Cover.
The compressor & turbine wheels are totally different in design, blade count and/or trim.

The full GT4788 turbo seen at BG had a 1500-1550 hp support rating.

The "New" PT88 T4 design turbo did not have an Offical HP rating
assigned as of date.

The current "Standard" PT88 T4 had a 1250hp support rating.

I can't say it was not availabe...there was "Limited Availablity"
Many Mfg. have used this term for certain turbo's that are available on special order to meet specific class rules. This is the case not just relating to BG, but for many other specific class requirements for NMRA, NMCA, NHRA etc. etc.

 

[Nick Micale]

Re: Re: turbo rules????

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR
.....on that note what will be involved with running next year
can anyone run in it without being a member of a club ?

...................I do plan to run at BG next year in the tsm class .. just figured since the rule makers are in this thread I'd speak up in here

Is there a discussion for next years tsm rules as Im doing more to the car I'll be bringing and want to be sure its built within the rules

At this point, non-club members will be allowed to run, but there will be "perks" for GSCA [and maybe BCA and BPG] members at registration.

All heads-up class rules will be "discussed" in an invitation-only forum consisting of exsisting racers, as well as those that plan to participate in a specific class. Details are being worked on and should be done in a week or 2. As I said, if you want to participate in the rule comment procedures, please e-mail me direct so you can be included.

 

[Ken H]

new pte88

Joe, thanks for the desciption on the " new " 88. Sorry to assume that your car had this too.

 

[odell4o8]

tso,

new rules , we dont need exhaust, just a big down pipe.

 

[EightSecV6]

Re: Re: Re: turbo rules????

Originally posted by Nick Micale
At this point, non-club members will be allowed to run, but there will be "perks" for GSCA [and maybe BCA and BPG] members at registration.

All heads-up class rules will be "discussed" in an invitation-only forum consisting of exsisting racers, as well as those that plan to participate in a specific class. Details are being worked on and should be done in a week or 2. As I said, if you want to participate in the rule comment procedures, please e-mail me direct so you can be included.

Nick,
I sent an email but it bounced, I'd like to be considered for input into the making/modifying of the rules for the TSO class.
Thanks




P.S. no problem Joe L