Twin turbo setup using stock turbos

[vetteman]

Has anyone tried or know of someone who tried using 2 stock 87 turbos on the 3.8 buick? If so, what would need to be done for an mass airflow sensor and what size injectors would support the airflow?

 

[Adam Connell]

Ouch... uhhh you do know that a Twin turbo setup would require and HUGE amount of fabrication right?? The MAF is the least of your worries if your asking that question right off the bat

I would search for different twin turbo setups and see what they have done... ESP just put one out and there is supposedly another coming out really soon that will allow you to use the A/C

 

[vetteman]

I've got an idea of what it takes to get it done. I have fabricated a twin turbo, blow through non intercooled system on a 350 chevy using the buick turbos already. Ive also fabricated a turbo system for my suzuki gsxr 750 using a T-25 off of a sunbird. Im just not certain about the amount of lag and power potential there is on a 3.8.

 

[JayC]

You mean like this?

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Turbofabricator has done a custom twin on a GN, he is on this board.

As for a maf sensor, if you are going to go twin I would go with the Maf Pro and ditch the maf completely.

And injector size is pretty simple, what E.T. you looking to run??
If you plan on going mid 10's or slower then run 60lbers, if faster might as well go 83's.

Both the Maf Pro and those injectors can be bought at Full Throttle Speed.

 

[getchasum]

You mean like this?

Hey Jay, Was that the old 4.1 Project-X?

 

[JayC]

That was a 3.8 setup.

I got something else in the works tho

 

[Adam Connell]

Vetteman,
Ok sounds like you knwo whats going on then, just wanted to make sure you knew its a ton of work hahaha. I started a projet to twin turbo one of my v-twin drag bikes for fun, but just flat out lost interest after helping some of the turbo guys at the track and seeing how much tuning they were doing at the track and how much of a pain it was. I know twin turbo systems are was less picky on cars, and I would love a system in my gn, so keep us updated on what your design is and how you plan on going about everything. Im looking forward to seeing your results!

 

[WIKEDV6]

Why not run a single 3.5 ls1 mass air on the up pipe with a translator setup? I may have a twin turbo setup going on a hybrid soon and that's what I was thinking.

HTH

Prasad

 

[VadersV6]

So what exactly are you trying to accomplish by going dual? You can try a small turbo and a large turbo...the smaller to spool up and the larger for top end. I really cant think of any other reason to go with duals, other than the wow factor. Just about anything a dual setup can do, a single turbo can do, if set up and tuned right.

 

[vetteman]

Why twins, several reasons. First I have a few of those stock turbos, and they are readly available cheap as most people upgrade. Second the stock swing valve wastegate is effective as opposed to purchasing a large expensive aftermarket or two. Finally I believe the stock twins have the potential to produce 700+ hp, and may respond better than a large single.

 

[vetteman]

Yup exactly, if those are stock turbos on a 3.8. Could you go into detail on your setup? JayC

 

[WIKEDV6]

So what exactly are you trying to accomplish by going dual? You can try a small turbo and a large turbo...the smaller to spool up and the larger for top end. I really cant think of any other reason to go with duals, other than the wow factor. Just about anything a dual setup can do, a single turbo can do, if set up and tuned right.

My reason first of all is the Wow! factor, I want a unique looking setup under a 1936 Aburn kit car that I am building. Second, the front of hood is so narrow that the turbo has to turned anyway to make it fit. I also wanted the four side pipes coming out of each side of the hood to be functional. Also I have these turbo laying around.

Vetteman, you can also go to a speed density system like the old school DFI , Fast , XFI or the new Maf-Pro from Full throttle speed where you can eliminate the mass airflow sensor.

HTH
Prasad

 

[JayC]

Yup exactly, if those are stock turbos on a 3.8. Could you go into detail on your setup? JayC

That setup was supposed to be a prototype for a production twin turbo kit that Charged Air Systems did about 7 years ago. I pulled an all nighter to put it on and we took the car to the track the next day untuned and unloaded the crank out of the bottom of the oilpan. Too much boost I guess on a motor that had a lot of passes already.

That kit had problems. For starters, the swingvalve wastegate is NOT the way to go. It's too hard to get the turbos set up the same. Also, trying to run a downpipe down the driver side is tough.. there isn't much room in there. Plus to keep AC and stuff, which was the original intention, I'm not sure that configuration would work.

After we took the kit off and sent it back to Tony, he sent it to another tester that ran some 6.40s in the 1/8th mile with it. I think Turbo Archie has the kit now.. or what's left of it.

Far as advantages, there are several. First, it's easy to spool.. maybe too easy. I watched with my own two eyes as a set of 29x10.5 slicks get boiled for several hundred feet at Texas Motorplex. Course, we had a 4000 stall converter in the car for the big single that was on it before so that setup likely needed a 2800 or so... maybe even a stock converter.

Also, stock turbos, like someone mentioned, are a dime a dozen. Even new, I think you could buy a pair for about $700.00, probably cheaper if someone really worked to source them out.

Next, you remove any chance of exhaust pulse reverb by splitting the two exhaust banks. Trying to run twins when you remerge both sides like Ken did doesn't accomplish that but I don't have any quantifiable gains for doing it so it may be negligible.

Here's something to think about tho. If you took the kit and bolted it on a stock care and did nothing but upgrade the fuel system, how much horsepower do you think you'd pick up? That's the true beauty of this. You're talking about taking a stock car and probably going from 13s down to low 11s for spending maybe a day and a half bolting stuff on. Granted you can accomplish the same thing by buying all your own parts, converter, etc but you gotta source everything, order it, get it all in and figure out how to fit it all together. I want to see a kit for a TRUE street car that can be installed without any grief by just about anyone that puts a stock car in the mid-low 11s when done.

I've tried and tried to get this kit done for years. I've had problems getting donor cars to use for fabrication, finding people who actually had the skill to do it, etc. We've got one in the works now that I hope we're going to be able to mass produce and sell. The kit is done to my specs and solves all the problems the first generation kit I did with DeQuick had. Actually the first generation kit (The one above) shouldn't have had the problems it did but DeQuick took a lot of creative license with my ideas so things didn't quite work out the way I intended.

 

[geno]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/pacific-northwest-area/192813-alcoholic-twins.html

 

[vetteman]

Wow thats an impressive setup. I dont really follow your alky and gas system, I guess you are injecting alot more alky than in a typical water methanol system. I also assume that the alky is turned on at a predetermined boost level? The link you posted showed the car in development stage, I saw a 10.15 time posted have you ran that car recently? I also noticed that you dont have much in the shortblock, do you think the engine is reliable at that level, or is the alchohol helping it live?

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I would not go twin because you have some stock turbo's laying around, you will spend more $$ and time getting it set up then its worth IMO.

A PT70 will spool probably a few 100 rpm slower than a dual anyways so I definitely would not do it for that either.

And if you are only looking to do high 9's or low 10's the dual is not going to be worth it IMO over the 70.

Shock value yes, cool.
But a PT70 for $1200 will get you pretty damn close to two stock turbo's less the header $$, piping etc etc.

 

[geno]

Wow thats an impressive setup. I dont really follow your alky and gas system, I guess you are injecting alot more alky than in a typical water methanol system. I also assume that the alky is turned on at a predetermined boost level? The link you posted showed the car in development stage, I saw a 10.15 time posted have you ran that car recently? I also noticed that you dont have much in the shortblock, do you think the engine is reliable at that level, or is the alchohol helping it live?

Its a buddys setup and he did this because he could and no other reason:biggrin: The car has run 125MPH on low boost at 11.4 but has no bar and he is going to make it legal for next year so he can turn it up My car has run the 10:15 on pump gas not his and as far as a pt-70 goes we all know it would be the easy way to do it. I went 9.90 with a p trim 70 at 137 mph so we know that can be done but he is the only one trying something different

 

[ESP Products]

Has anyone tried or know of someone who tried using 2 stock 87 turbos on the 3.8 buick? If so, what would need to be done for an mass airflow sensor and what size injectors would support the airflow?

Im just not certain about the amount of lag and power potential there is on a 3.8.

Obviously you can use any turbo you want, but to use two stockers doesn't seem worthwhile. Our current system powers a Buick to 800 hp. And these are relatively small turbos. We run the can through a full exhaust and race it as we drive it. The only change being tires and gas. We have Dyno'd the car at 10# and made over 450 hp. That same 10#s of boost ran the can into the mid-low 11s. We recently slide off the line at Cecil in 10.5 second @ over 130 mph (18 psi):wink: . Again these are tubos that are larger than stock, but not that much. We chose this route because smaller turbos would yield less power and then you could have an argument that the single is just as good. Singles are very responsive unit the 500-550 range. The twin set-up should start there and go up in power output.
About the power potential - we've still using the stock block, crank, and rods. We are girdled. We have two more cars in the shop now for our ESP Twin turbo kit; one for 800 hp, one for 1,200. I don't think the stock engine will hold 1,200, at least not for long.:biggrin:

 

[Quiky One]

There is another guy who just installed them on his car. I believe his name was turbofabricator. His car is awesome. Check it out.

Jason