Type II Ignition Swap Question

[esinger]

Last night Richard Clark, Pat (SloGN) and I started testing the original coilpacks and modules versus the Type II coils and module.

There's a lot more testing that'll have to be done, but in our short session the Type II was showing superior performance versus the original stock coil and module.

Pat also has MSD coils, so we'll more than likely be testing them as well.

We plan on posting the data to back up our claims once the testing has been completed.

 

[liquidh8]

that would be good info to see. I wonder how much of a difference hotwiring the module for the TYPE II would be. I thought about doing that too, not going to buy the caspers kit though.

 

[esinger]

that would be good info to see. I wonder how much of a difference hotwiring the module for the TYPE II would be. I thought about doing that too, not going to buy the caspers kit though.

I do believe there's a strong case for hotwiring the ignition module. We did see the output of the ignition module increase and decrease when we varied the input voltage. Last night’s tests were on a test bench and not on a car, but I feel pretty confident that the voltage will increase with hotwiring. How much? I don’t know yet.

 

[SloGN]

ok like ESinger posted that we are in the middle of testing the magnavox and the type II modules and coils


so far what we have done is measure the impedance of each coil to get good base line average #

The stock coils seems to have a average of 3.2 ohms and the delco units have 2 ohms.

what we did notice was that the delco coils seems to have a more consistant ohms rating over the magnavox. we measured 3 different units to get a very good average #.

Ok now we tested the output voltage of the ignition modules. this test was conducted using very stable power supply that keeps the voltage @ the set point no matter the load/current draw.

We used a test voltage of 14 volts on both units.

The stock Magnavox unit has a output voltage of 12 volts.

The Type II delco unit has a output voltage a tad over 13 volts.

The measurements of the output voltage was taken using a scope. so we could actually catch the voltage in real time. A multimeter just can't keep up with the firing of the coils.

One thing that we also noticed was that neither module lost output voltage, the faster we fired the coils/module.


Like Esinger posted above both ignition modules the input voltage has a drastic effect on the output voltage that used to fire the coils.

That should be a no brainer on that! has we have known that for yrs on fuel pumps well the ignition system is no different.


The next part of the test is to get a high voltage reading from both type of coils.


Also my Daily driver has a set of the red msd coils on it. so i'm gonna do some measurements to see if they really are a higher output coils.

They were installed before i purchased the car. so i don't know what part # they are. they are bolted on a 98 Grand Prix GTP supercharged 3800.

 

[A2000RICH]

Last night Richard Clark, Pat (SloGN) and I started testing the original coilpacks and modules versus the Type II coils and module.

There's a lot more testing that'll have to be done, but in our short session the Type II was showing superior performance versus the original stock coil and module.

Pat also has MSD coils, so we'll more than likely be testing them as well.

We plan on posting the data to back up our claims once the testing has been completed.

Here are some preliminary results---------i would not consider the quick tests posted here to be exactly scientific method quality since it was done on the fly and no calibration was done before hand and nothing was correlated to multiple tests but a trend seems to be clear---------since its high speed/power we are most concerned about i did the static meaurements at 5000 RPM ie 42 Hz-------- Rs impedance of the primary coils was about 2 ohms for the type II and slightly over 3 for the type I---------all things being equal (which they usually aren't) this would indicate that the type II coils could produce about 50% more output than the type I-------we tried driving both type coils with each type of ignition module and it didn't seem to make much difference--------unfortunately both types of modules have some sort of current limiting that prevents them from really producing their true output potential and flyback pulses make actual current measurenemts difficult but given time i can work something out to measure it accurately--------i intend to do some more testing to see just what each type of coil pack can actually do if its not limited by drive current---------this inherent limitation sort of points to the unfortunate fact that a "higher" output coil may not be of much value if it can't be driven with more current-------i am also not convinced that "hot wiring" is of much value for the same reason--------at any rate it is important to recognize that the current path that results from being hooked up to Caspers tester is not exactly like the current path that results from being hooked to the block where the center tap of the two gaps is grounded--------that said i can state that when measured with a high voltage probe (an identical gap distance and Caspers tester) the peak output voltage of the type II coils was amost 50% higher at 5000Hz than it was with the type I--------after these short tests one thing is clear-------a buffer driver placed between the ignition module and the coil pack that worked from a higher voltage and has little or no current limiting would really be the bomb--------------RC

 

[esinger]

Hi Richard, I really thought I saw the modules output increasing and decreasing when you were adjusting the input voltage.

I guess we'll be testing the benefits of as well.

Anyway, this will be a fun project

 

[A2000RICH]

Hi Richard, I really thought I saw the modules output increasing and decreasing when you were adjusting the input voltage.

I guess we'll be testing the benefits of as well.

Anyway, this will be a fun project

it does appear to the eye that the output decreases at higher speeds but according to the voltage probe and display on the scope it did not change---------i don't think on something like this you can count on the temporal integration time of your eye which i would estimate on something like this is about 20 milliseconds--------virtually all of our senses are time weighted and it is easy to fool mother nature but machines and electrons not so much..............RC

 

[A2000RICH]

Hi Richard, I really thought I saw the modules output increasing and decreasing when you were adjusting the input voltage.

I guess we'll be testing the benefits of as well.

Anyway, this will be a fun project

the output does increase with increasing voltage up to a point-------drive voltage to the coils was always about 2 volts less than the input voltage to the ign module---------but the two limiting factors seem to be the voltage drop across the transistors internal to the ign module and what appears to be a ballast resistor probably in series with the emitter-------its just another clear case of "higher voltage results in improved performance"-------a case that speaks strongly to the use of a voltage booster.............

 

[Nick Micale]

im in the boat now. im trying to decide what to do, but not convinced this series II swap is right for me.....i run 26psi, 93 and meth, and shift at 6300....

Been there and done that a few years ago, Type II ignition does NOT work over 6000 RPM and that kind of boost.

I even went with the MSD coils, no change. Asked MSD about this and he gave me a technical electrical explanation that I did not understand well enough to repeat.

Basically, he said you could not get enough voltage into the coil to make it work properly at high RPM, over 6000.

But if you still want to try it, I have a slightly used Type II set up with MSD coils that I would be happy to sell you.

 

[daturbosix]

Been there and done that a few years ago, Type II ignition does NOT work over 6000 RPM and that kind of boost.

I even went with the MSD coils, no change. Asked MSD about this and he gave me a technical electrical explanation that I did not understand well enough to repeat.

Basically, he said you could not get enough voltage into the coil to make it work properly at high RPM, over 6000.

But if you still want to try it, I have a slightly used Type II set up with MSD coils that I would be happy to sell you.

i got a good used module in teh car now, with my origional coilpack, it breaks up a little once in full boost, so im sure i need a coilpack also.

im gonna get a brand new ICM and coilpack, just dont know if i should get delco, standard, accel... defenatly getting a GM ICM tho.

 

[A2000RICH]

Been there and done that a few years ago, Type II ignition does NOT work over 6000 RPM and that kind of boost.

I even went with the MSD coils, no change. Asked MSD about this and he gave me a technical electrical explanation that I did not understand well enough to repeat.

Basically, he said you could not get enough voltage into the coil to make it work properly at high RPM, over 6000.

But if you still want to try it, I have a slightly used Type II set up with MSD coils that I would be happy to sell you.

nick-------i might be interested in those coils since i do not have any MSD's to test---------i want to be able to totally quantify this-------if they don't work i want to know the reason why-------usually when we know the why clearly enough we can come up with a fix...............RC

 

[TurboBob]

increased voltage should improve charging time, allowing higher rpms without losing saturation. The "high output"coils may have different primary inductance, thus changing this characteristic.

removing the current limiting is not a good idea, as I believe there are many times that the coils are driven onto the limit.

Later model PCM's do very tight dwell control and therefore can get away without limiting in the drive electronics.

Bob

 

[TurboBob]

Rich, did you ever see any of Bruce Plecan's ignition experiments?

He mentioned that someone somewhere (Dr. Jacobs perhaps) said that there was a point at which you could have too much spark energy and it would just punch a hole in the mixture without lighting it properly.

He was trying to make it happen (unsuccessfully). At last count he was going to run 6 independent CD ignition boxes, sort of sextuple overkill.


Bob

 

[SloGN]

the output does increase with increasing voltage up to a point-------drive voltage to the coils was always about 2 volts less than the input voltage to the ign module---------but the two limiting factors seem to be the voltage drop across the transistors internal to the ign module and what appears to be a ballast resistor probably in series with the emitter-------its just another clear case of "higher voltage results in improved performance"-------a case that speaks strongly to the use of a voltage booster.............

So using a hot wire kit on the ignition system to over come the voltage drop in the car's wiring will help too.


Richard

The next test i want to dois check and see what the voltage drop is @ the ignition module VS whats at the back of the alt or battery. I'm suspecting there @ least a 1.5 volt drop.

so feeding the ignition system with as much voltage as one can get has got to help.

 

[TurboBob]

at lower rpm it will not help, as the coil charges up to the limit imposed by the ignition module.

I need to look back at my notes, but the coil on my car charges in about 3 ms if I remember correctly.

There is a minimum off time which I don't remember, but its probably .5ms or so.

So we start losing spark energy when the coil doesn't have enough time to charge.

the coils charge and fire 3x in one revolution.

6000 RPM is 10ms for one revolution.

if the time between coil cycles is .5ms, then 3 + .5 + 3 + .5 + 3 + .5 is the total time required to fully charge the coils.

thats 11.5ms, which is 5217 RPM. Above that (based on my theoretical numbers and fading memory) we lose spark energy.

With higher applied voltage, the coils will charge faster, extending our range.


Note also, when they get hot, coils charge more slowly.



Bob

 

[SloGN]

at lower rpm it will not help, as the coil charges up to the limit imposed by the ignition module.

I need to look back at my notes, but the coil on my car charges in about 3 ms if I remember correctly.

There is a minimum off time which I don't remember, but its probably .5ms or so.

So we start losing spark energy when the coil doesn't have enough time to charge.

the coils charge and fire 3x in one revolution.

6000 RPM is 10ms for one revolution.

if the time between coil cycles is .5ms, then 3 + .5 + 3 + .5 + 3 + .5 is the total time required to fully charge the coils.

thats 11.5ms, which is 5217 RPM. Above that (based on my theoretical numbers and fading memory) we lose spark energy.

With higher applied voltage, the coils will charge faster, extending our range.


Note also, when they get hot, coils charge more slowly.



Bob

Bob

I understand the dwell time for saturation of the coils is gonna be less as higher rpms.

But one would think that it you use 14 volts at the primary VS 11 volts the more voltage will make a difference all the way up.


As we noted last night The output voltage was always 2 volts less than the input voltage.

so if the input voltage is say 12 volts that means the coils are seeing 10 volts. then there is the current limiting issues. but i can't see how the current limiters are being a issue if the max output voltage on the limiter is not met.


I also understand that as the coils heat-up the resistance goes up.


BTW i love a good tech discussion!

 

[corsair231]

School is in session

 

[daturbosix]

School is in session

< quietly taking notes.

 

[esinger]

Alright, so let's say all the Type II coils and ignition modules are total garbage and GM went backwards in designing these and producing them.

What makes the stock style coil pack and modules so good?

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

< quietly taking notes.

Gotta love Copy & paste.