Watts Link on a TB anyone?
- Thread starter Hot Air
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T-CHRGD
Well-Known Member
Pics near bottom of page 1:biggrin:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspensions-tires-wheels/268785-how-make-gbody-handle.html
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspensions-tires-wheels/268785-how-make-gbody-handle.html
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
I just ran accross this thread and though people might want to know this..
The purpose of a watts link is to keep the rear end from moving side to side. The upper links of the 4 link, wether it is a swivel link or not, also prevents the side to side movement of the rear. Having both would cause conflicting roll centers and the car will try to rotate around two different points. This creates a tremendous amount of stress on all of the suspension components, and causes the car to handle poorly.
The only time a watts link or Panhard bar is needed is on a rear with parallel control arms like a parallel four link, torque arm, or a three link because their control arms only distribute forces towards the front and back of the car.
SW.
The purpose of a watts link is to keep the rear end from moving side to side. The upper links of the 4 link, wether it is a swivel link or not, also prevents the side to side movement of the rear. Having both would cause conflicting roll centers and the car will try to rotate around two different points. This creates a tremendous amount of stress on all of the suspension components, and causes the car to handle poorly.
The only time a watts link or Panhard bar is needed is on a rear with parallel control arms like a parallel four link, torque arm, or a three link because their control arms only distribute forces towards the front and back of the car.
SW.
Yep...
^^^^
^^^^
T-CHRGD
Well-Known Member
Well Ken,
I know that is a common (mis)perception, but in fact the car handles much better with it. I know.
Have you ever been in a car with a Watts??You should check out the N.A.S.A. American Iron and American Iron Extreme Series. The original factory rear suspension is Required, with add-ons allowed. Cars running triangulated 4 links that added a Watts Link saw a significant improvement in track times and drivers reported the cars were much more controllable. The factory triangulated 4 link is a Bad design for Good handling. It is designed for rear seat room.
There is a lengthy explanation as to why a Watts Link works with our type of suspension, but I just don't have the time to post it here.
I'll tell you what though Ken, I will make sure you get a free copy of Mark Savitske's new book "How to Make a Muscle Car Handle", due out next month. It will explain ALOT :biggrin:
Yes, I just copied and pasted MY comments from the other thread.
Well I'm gonna be devils advocate here. Yes, the watts link system works well, but if you're not going over 120 in a corner it's not worth it. UNGN is a member here and I'd love to see him post something about his set up. He runs the Texas flying mile on a regular basis. He had an issue with the rear moving sideways,but he was going over 100 MPH through a corner.:biggrin:
Unless you're running a modified 3 link system or a very modified car that's intended to go over 100 MPH through the corners then it's not worth the extra expense. :smile:
Unless you're running a modified 3 link system or a very modified car that's intended to go over 100 MPH through the corners then it's not worth the extra expense. :smile:
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
Not sure who Ken is but since you quoted me I will just guess you meant me. As a matter of fact I have been in several cars that had the Watts, and on the autocross, just Not on a G-Body! I know, Have you ever had your car on a autocross or road course with the Watts?Well Ken,
I know that is a common (mis)perception, but in fact the car handles much better with it. I know.
With Richard putting on the first ever Buick Autocross event this will be a good chance to Show how well the Watts does..
Of course they noticed an improvement, with the old sloppy rubber bushings still in place I can see it making a difference. But my question is what good would the Watts do with todays technology like a new set of uppers & lowers with todays technology in upgraded bushings or even DSE Uppers & Lowers that have Delrin bushings and their patented swivel link technology?
If the Triangulated 4-link is a bad design for good handling, why are they sold by leading suspension manufactures like AME to this day For Better Handling?The factory triangulated 4 link is a Bad design for Good handling. It is designed for rear seat room.
Every event that I have attended has shown 3 links get beat up by 4 links, yet somehow, in the world of agenda driven bench racing, 3 links are the end-all while 4 links will bind and therefore cause your car to flip over and burst into flames... As a customer myself and I'm sure other customers feel the same, I like to see Real World results instead of reading books or just hearing about what works on the street! I like to see company's out there testing there products at 15-20 Autocross/roadrace events each year and putting that information/data back into the products we buy. That shows me I'm buying a product That Truly Works!
Scot W
JOHN THE WATTS BAR IS A GREAT PIECE FOR HIGH G LOADS IN THE CORNERS AND WORKS WELL. I WOULD LIKE TO RIDE IN A CAR WITH IT TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE.
NICE TO SEE PEOPLE THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX.
ITS ALWAYS AMAZING HOW SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE NEW TO HANDLING CARS ARE NOW THE EXPERT IN THE FIELD !!!!
NICE TO SEE PEOPLE THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX.
ITS ALWAYS AMAZING HOW SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE NEW TO HANDLING CARS ARE NOW THE EXPERT IN THE FIELD !!!!
ITS ALWAYS AMAZING HOW SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE NEW TO HANDLING CARS ARE NOW THE EXPERT IN THE FIELD !!!!
Aint that the truth!!!:biggrin:
83hurstguy
Member
If the Triangulated 4-link is a bad design for good handling, why are they sold by leading suspension manufactures like AME to this day For Better Handling?
AME is building a G-body chassis now, and it's getting a 3 link... pictures here.
G-body Roll Call
Does AME use factory geometry for their triangulated 4 links? Highly doubt it. The chassis I have seen from them tend to use longer upper arms than a stock GM arrangement, with different skew. Not saying a 3 link is better... but all triangulated 4 links are not created equal.
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
JOHN THE WATTS BAR IS A GREAT PIECE FOR HIGH G LOADS IN THE CORNERS AND WORKS WELL. I WOULD LIKE TO RIDE IN A CAR WITH IT TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCE.
NICE TO SEE PEOPLE THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX.
ITS ALWAYS AMAZING HOW SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE NEW TO HANDLING CARS ARE NOW THE EXPERT IN THE FIELD !!!!
LMAO.... Jerremy, Eric, what would be nice, is to see you guy's that call your cars "Pro-touring" actually use them for what represents the name! Mybe instead, "Joe-Touring"? :biggrin:
I FIND IT EQUALLY AMAZING HOW SOME PEOPLE CLAIM TO HAVE A SUSPENSION SET UP "THAT WORKS" BUT DON'T EVER TEST THEIR CARS OTHER THAN ON THE STREET!!!
For the record I never claimed to be an Expert at anything but at least I can say we test the stuff we sell and that's more than can be said for most..
T-CHRGD
Well-Known Member
How many autocrosses have you run ??
I used to run 15-20 autocrosses a year back in 1989-91, through-out eastern PA, NJ, and DE and I know MY car. If me telling you my car handles FAR better now than it Ever has in the 24 years I've owned it is BS to you, that's your problem.
not done
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
John, All I asked is if you had this car on a course with the WATTS to see how it handles under a more severe load and more harsh conditions to determine how well it works thats all.. I already know you ran autocross before, that wasn't in question..I have read all of SC&C's posts concerning this already and what it's claimed to do but let me tell you that i'm not the only one out there who thinks that adding the Watts to a triangulated 4-link is going to add conflicting roll centers.. IF it works and it's proven to work with the triangulated 4-link then I will stand corrected but I haven't seen Proof yet..
T-CHRGD
Well-Known Member
You keep saying that the DSE swivel links is "today's technology." It may be a new patent for how it is made or designed, but actually, it's function ("function is everything") is last decade's technology. Tera Flex originated (?) the twisting arm design over 10 years ago. Their twisting arms are now on their "overstock and discontinued" parts list.
Overstock TJ Wrangler Standard Lower FlexArms | TeraFlex Suspensions
The problem is they only swivel on One axis. That is why they switched to the real "today's technology" and began using Currie "johnny joints", which pivot on multiple axes.
Modular short arms | TeraFlex Suspensions
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scot w.
GNSperformance.com
Well this really don't have much to do with me but Regaurdless of who's technology it was back then I can assure you that DSE has improved and also done their own to them and since it's being used on their very own test cars and the fact that they (and their customers) are at the top of many Autocross / roadcourse event accross the country it looks like they work pretty well to me, wouldn't you say?
T-CHRGD
Well-Known Member
You should know who Ken is, you quoted him nearly Word for Word from his post on "pro-touring.com" and posted His comments here as your own
68-72 GM A-body watts and Gas tank
Remember post #4 ?? Looks like :
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/2652351-post4.html
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scot w.
GNSperformance.com
Nice try, but in your fury of post hunting you failed to see this posted at the very beginning of my post....You should know who Ken is, you quoted him nearly Word for Word from his post on "pro-touring.com" and posted His comments here as your own
68-72 GM A-body watts and Gas tank
Remember post #4 ?? Looks like :
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/2652351-post4.html
"I just ran accross this thread and though people might want to know this.." That my friend does not imply that it was from me...
T-CHRGD
Well-Known Member
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
OMG....Every Single One ???
Let me get back to you on that.
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