dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
- Messages
- 5,126
sad part is....... were gonna hit the market for cheap 4.1 pistons finally and the 4.1 block market is going to die. 4.1 blocks are already getting hard to find.
what would be a dream piston for the 'average' build?
- Thread starter earlbrown
- Start date
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The price point has me a little worried. The angle I've been using is that the market was bare and their costs and efforts could be recouped fairly quickly. I was basically a doorway into a market they would own for a little while. Asking these guys to go through all the trouble to start up a new piston line just to find there's competition, dwindling blocks, and more of these cars getting parked every year doesn't seem too nice. Plus if their sales are going to 1/2 it's not like I can expect them to make a smoking deal for a small group of people.
I don't know anything about Diamond as I've never ran any of them or researched them. Mike has them on his site for $550 and $110 for rings. I know I could come in under that but having me as a cheerleader doesn't help them compete against established Buick vendors and justify their trouble.
What's bad is I was going to approach Mike and/or some other vendors and see if he wanted to take the reins after I finished the R&D and prototyping.
I don't know anything about Diamond as I've never ran any of them or researched them. Mike has them on his site for $550 and $110 for rings. I know I could come in under that but having me as a cheerleader doesn't help them compete against established Buick vendors and justify their trouble.
What's bad is I was going to approach Mike and/or some other vendors and see if he wanted to take the reins after I finished the R&D and prototyping.
Just tell them all you know and let them make the business decision. Price will be higher with the lower volume but customers will get a choice. Also, won't there be a steady market from the Stage II and TA block guys? The custom bore would really appeal to Stage guys trying to squeeze one more build out of already bored blocks. Maybe have them talk to some of the big Stage motor builders like DLS, RPE, and Duttweiler for a better market survey.
Go over to www.speedtalk.com and look at the engine (and advanced engine) forums. There have been a couple of threads lately about dish shapes. The spherical dish seems preferred over a stock style dish with more vertical sides, and maybe even over a reverse-chamber shape.
Go over to www.speedtalk.com and look at the engine (and advanced engine) forums. There have been a couple of threads lately about dish shapes. The spherical dish seems preferred over a stock style dish with more vertical sides, and maybe even over a reverse-chamber shape.
It's not their decision. I'm the one financing the prototypes. When I mentioned their costs, I was talking about their manpower writing the print and making sure it plays nice with all their CNC machines. The way I was trying to keep the price down for everybod was to do as much work as I could for them.
I've been working with some pretty sharp techs that know more than I do about domes, dishes and piston design and we've got it ironed out.
The inverted dome we've settled with is loosely based on some technology they've developed from their tractor pulling teams. The dome they built for them looks much less 'high tech' but make slightly more power with 3* less ignition advance. I like the idea of not having to run buttloads of timing when you don't have to.
The reverse chamber design won't really work with our heads as they chamber is just too big relative to the bore. If a piston dish was made to mirror the combustion chamber you'd end up with a flattop that has a small plateau and to large pieces of flash sticking up.
Here's the chamber from the view of a .030 3.8 piston.
the inverted dome I've came up with pretty much acts as it's own combustion chamber during dwell and the beginning of the power stroke.
I've been working with some pretty sharp techs that know more than I do about domes, dishes and piston design and we've got it ironed out.
The inverted dome we've settled with is loosely based on some technology they've developed from their tractor pulling teams. The dome they built for them looks much less 'high tech' but make slightly more power with 3* less ignition advance. I like the idea of not having to run buttloads of timing when you don't have to.
The reverse chamber design won't really work with our heads as they chamber is just too big relative to the bore. If a piston dish was made to mirror the combustion chamber you'd end up with a flattop that has a small plateau and to large pieces of flash sticking up.
Here's the chamber from the view of a .030 3.8 piston.
the inverted dome I've came up with pretty much acts as it's own combustion chamber during dwell and the beginning of the power stroke.
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 9,454
Ive cleaned this thread, please keep it on topic.
Just got off the phone with the head engineer. The print will be finalized tomorrow!!! Soon I shall have pretty pretty solidworks pictures and then a shiny prototype in my hands.
Right now the nominal range will be anywhere between a 3.805" bore all the way to 4.025" (actually it's 2.500" to 5.500" but that's kinda out of our blocks limits
), 22cc inverted dome and a compression height that will place the piston anywhere you need it. Accumulator grooves and Gas distribution grooves will be standard.
I talked to the tech and I'm going to go ahead and spend the cheeze to make forced pin oiling standard. Horizontal gas ports will be optional but not standard.
The 22cc unit is a great compromise that will allow 9ish:1 static from a stock stroke 3.805 all the way to a stroked .060 4.1. What's really cool is these slugs will be able to achieve desired numbers without having to pay for boring, decking or spending a fortune on custom Cometic gaskets.
The ring pack gets rid of the old high drag 5/16 rings and uses either 1.5mm or 1/16 modern rings. (the choice comes down to the exact final bore size. There's certain bores that aren't offered in 1.5mm and certain bores that 1/16 can't fill)
With a set of what I'm building, a rebuild will go like this... First you measure the worst hole and figure out where it will clean up at. Rough hone it to size (no more boring!) and tell me the final bore size. Then, decide what static compression you want using cost effective non custom gaskets. That sets the compression height (no more decking!). As long as the piston isn't too close to the head, that's it!
With these slugs, the block doesn't lose any more meat than they have to, and the deck doesn't have to be thinned just to raise the compression. Plus you can use easy to seal $50 shelf gaskets instead of $100 Cometic gaskets that are pickier on surface finish.
The savings in machine shop costs and gasket costs will damn near pay for the pistons!
Right now the nominal range will be anywhere between a 3.805" bore all the way to 4.025" (actually it's 2.500" to 5.500" but that's kinda out of our blocks limits
), 22cc inverted dome and a compression height that will place the piston anywhere you need it. Accumulator grooves and Gas distribution grooves will be standard.I talked to the tech and I'm going to go ahead and spend the cheeze to make forced pin oiling standard. Horizontal gas ports will be optional but not standard.
The 22cc unit is a great compromise that will allow 9ish:1 static from a stock stroke 3.805 all the way to a stroked .060 4.1. What's really cool is these slugs will be able to achieve desired numbers without having to pay for boring, decking or spending a fortune on custom Cometic gaskets.
The ring pack gets rid of the old high drag 5/16 rings and uses either 1.5mm or 1/16 modern rings. (the choice comes down to the exact final bore size. There's certain bores that aren't offered in 1.5mm and certain bores that 1/16 can't fill)
With a set of what I'm building, a rebuild will go like this... First you measure the worst hole and figure out where it will clean up at. Rough hone it to size (no more boring!) and tell me the final bore size. Then, decide what static compression you want using cost effective non custom gaskets. That sets the compression height (no more decking!). As long as the piston isn't too close to the head, that's it!
With these slugs, the block doesn't lose any more meat than they have to, and the deck doesn't have to be thinned just to raise the compression. Plus you can use easy to seal $50 shelf gaskets instead of $100 Cometic gaskets that are pickier on surface finish.
The savings in machine shop costs and gasket costs will damn near pay for the pistons!
Turbo-Archie
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2002
- Messages
- 1,529
So, how much are they?
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czimpel
Boost...gotta get some!
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2012
- Messages
- 748
Earl, thanks for all of your hard work on this. I'm close to building a 4.1, and the pistons are the part I'm stuck on.
Thanks for the support guys. These are actually going to be pretty badass. I just got off the phone with the head tech again. He's really getting into making these.... He told me 'this is the kinda stuff I live for' and he's been working on a full on race pistons for really beating on them off to the side.
Now Ive got homework to do... I need to look up availability of every single bore size in 1/16 and 1.5mm rings. Don't want to make a piston that has no rings out there! Fun logistics you never think about when starting a project.
Now Ive got homework to do... I need to look up availability of every single bore size in 1/16 and 1.5mm rings. Don't want to make a piston that has no rings out there! Fun logistics you never think about when starting a project.
Turbo-Archie
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2002
- Messages
- 1,529
I'm dropping my block off at the shop on Sat, so will need some pistons soon..
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Turbo-Archie
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2002
- Messages
- 1,529
No the shop will, it has a ring ridge and some rust from water sitting so that might not be good.
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What about these pistons will make the $50 off the shelf headgaskets hold up under power?
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larrym
West Coast Newfy
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2007
- Messages
- 1,285
Any updates Earl? Got my block stripped down and a forged crank lined up.
Could be looking for pistons soon.
Could be looking for pistons soon.
