224 Stage I Single Turbo Buick V6 does the impossible. 8.76 @ 158.7

[Dusty Bradford]

Wow. A lot of time. I understand that once the other person has staged and you are pre-staged, you have 7 seconds to stage. Is this correct? Is it a universal rule, or can it be different at different tracks? Longer time? I ask this because I know someone that feels the time was longer than 7 seconds and it caused him to ruin his trans and TC.

If autostart is turned on, it is usually noted on your timeslip. 7 seconds is the norm but it is adjustable. This set time is discussed in the drivers meetings. If autostart is not on the last car to stage can wait as long as they want. I have counted as much as 12-14 seconds on video at t&t events. Usually the driver who sat there that long is inexperienced. I've been hung out 1 time in the last 5 years and I was on the brake for nearly the full 7 seconds. I did have to change the fluid but the trans was fine.

BTW, I do not run a trans cooler of any kind and get 2 full events out of the fluid. That may change with my new 10.5 converter.

 

[Alky V6]

I give up. I realize now, you don't understand completly how the controller works. You read the "Note" in the directions. Did your boost curve fall in that category?

I can see how you would feel this way, and I knew from the beginning it would be a pain to get you to understand. Now you understand why I didn't even want to get started on this with you. I knew it would end this way. Most discussions with you do seem to end this way. You doing your best to make sure I look like I don't know what the heck I'm doing.
One last time. Plug the numbers into a controller.
This strategy came to me when I was just playing around with the settings and this curve just popped up that looked promising, so I tried it. I completely agree with you about how the settings look. I'm sure there has to be a more logical way to lay out the settings and make it do the same thing that my settings are doing.
Bottom line is, it works, and it works very well. It is easy to make very quick and simple changes to the curve. When these settings are allowing me to make the type of adjustments I'm looking for and so easily, I'm not going to bother spending my time trying to figure out a better way until I've found a limitation in what these settings can do for me in my particular situation.
The boost curve in the posted datalog earlier was the result of these settings. The boost curve is exactly what I was looking for except that the dip in boost for the 1-2 shift needed to begin .2 sec earlier. This ended up being a simple .2 sec change in a stage timer setting.

Don't worry Cal. I haven't finished learning.

 

[HighPSI]

I am only doing this on paper, not in a controller, so I may have made a mathematical error, but it appears my suspicions were correct and your boost strategy cannot reach your Target Boost settings. Your 3rdStage is targeting 23, but only has enough time to hit 24. Your 4th stage, in spite of getting a head start because of your bad numbers in the 3rd stage, still can only reach 26.3 not the target of 27.9. If you would have had good data in the 3rd stage, the 4th would have been worse and only hit 25.3. Once again, I did this on paper, but can verify it tomorrow if you would like.
Would you agree that you could target 0 if you want in the 3rd stage or 60 in the 4th and it wouldn't make one bit of difference.

 

[Alky V6]

If autostart is turned on, it is usually noted on your timeslip. 7 seconds is the norm but it is adjustable. This set time is discussed in the drivers meetings. If autostart is not on the last car to stage can wait as long as they want. I have counted as much as 12-14 seconds on video at t&t events. Usually the driver who sat there that long is inexperienced. I've been hung out 1 time in the last 5 years and I was on the brake for nearly the full 7 seconds. I did have to change the fluid but the trans was fine.

BTW, I do not run a trans cooler of any kind and get 2 full events out of the fluid. That may change with my new 10.5 converter.

Do you monitor temps? What do you mean it may change? What will change? Add a cooler?

edit: BTW thanks for sharing that information. That helps me prepare for what should be asked at the drivers meetings.

 

[Alky V6]

I am only doing this on paper, not in a controller, so I may have made a mathematical error, but it appears my suspicions were correct and your boost strategy cannot reach your Target Boost settings. Your 3rdStage is targeting 23, but only has enough time to hit 24. Your 4th stage, in spite of getting a head start because of your bad numbers in the 3rd stage, still can only reach 26.3 not the target of 27.9. If you would have had good data in the 3rd stage, the 4th would have been worse and only hit 25.3. Once again, I did this on paper, but can verify it tomorrow if you would like.
Would you agree that you could target 0 if you want in the 3rd stage or 60 in the 4th and it wouldn't make one bit of difference.

You can do whatever you want with it. I don't need any verification. The 'graph view' of the settings is smooth. The resulting real world boost datalog trace is smooth. That's all the verification I need.

edit: To answer your question, I can't agree because I haven't tried those numbers there, and I don't understand the controller as well as you to even try to figure it out on paper as to whether it would or not. I would have to physically plug those numbers into the controller to tell you if they affected a change. All I can tell you is, the numbers that I have in the settings now are working for me.

 

[HighPSI]

You read the "Note" in the directions. Did your boost curve fall in that category?

Since you didn't answer this. I will tell you the answer "Yes". This is what the AMS directions warned you about.

 

[Bent6]

LOL If you think the user friendliness is bad now, you should have worked with some of the earlier versions.
I have to pass on the datalog. What I post on this thread is all I'm prepared to share on the engine management.

That's what I expected.

Do you honestly think I give a rip about your tune or anything else about your setup? I just wanted an actual TEC log to load into the software.

Always willing to share huh?

And I know, you don't owe me or anyone else an answer to tech questions - after all, you're just trying to edjumacate all of us dummies.

 

[HighPSI]

Would you agree that you could target 0 if you want in the 3rd stage or 60 in the 4th and it wouldn't make one bit of difference.

Sorry, I meant that as a question.

 

[Alky V6]

Since you didn't answer this. I will tell you the answer "Yes". This is what the AMS directions warned you about.

Sorry. Missed that question. Dang, you sure get bent when I miss a question.
I do see what you're talking about in the 'graph view'. Unless you want to tell me that the graph view is not a fair representation of what the settings will try to do with the control pressure.

edit: Is the 'graph view' ever not a true representation of the type of curve the settings will ultimately provide?

 

[Alky V6]

Sorry, I meant that as a question.

I answered that with an edit in one of the past posts.

 

[Alky V6]

That's what I expected.

Do you honestly think I give a rip about your tune or anything else about your setup? I just wanted an actual TEC log to load into the software.

Always willing to share huh?

And I know, you don't owe me or anyone else an answer to tech questions - after all, you're just trying to edjumacate all of us dummies.

LOL Now how did I know? :biggrin:
I've already learned long ago that you're not a person worthy of my help in any way. Posts like this just help confirm that feeling.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Do you monitor temps? What do you mean it may change? What will change? Add a cooler?

edit: BTW thanks for sharing that information. That helps me prepare for what should be asked at the drivers meetings.

I do not monitor temps. Never had a need to. In most cases it's just something to cause you to worry for no reason. It is what it is. If I had an issue with burning fluid I would be checking it. I have a ringless input shaft so there would be little to no cooler flow anyway.

I'm changing from a 9.5 to a 10.5 converter. My 9.5's are loose down low so the car doesn't have to sit on the converter long to build rpm which helps with the heat. This 10.5 will be tighter down low to keep the rpm in check after launch. The 9.5 was allowing the rpm to climb to high without accelerating the car due to the big block's torque. I already have a plan if the temps get too high. We've tested it on another car already where we modify the support bushing and it's location so that we can get the cooler flow we need. With a water cooled trans cooler the temp never gets over 120. You can nearly hold your hand on the pan when you return from a pass.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

edit: Is the 'graph view' ever not a true representation of the type of curve the settings will ultimately provide?

No, due to the lag time between the controller and the turbo system reponse time.....the AMS can be ahead of the actual pressure. If the ramp is too fast the system will not reach the pressure that you desire before the next stage starts. It may follow your desired path but may not reach what that C02 pressure would actually provide if given enough time.

The result would be the controller not reponding to some changes where the ramp is not physically possible

 

[HighPSI]

edit: To answer your question, I can't agree because I haven't tried those numbers there, and I don't understand the controller as well as you to even try to figure it out on paper as to whether it would or not. I would have to physically plug those numbers into the controller to tell you if they affected a change. All I can tell you is, the numbers that I have in the settings now are working for me.

That was a very fair answer. I know that it appears that I am shoving this down your throat, but I am just trying to help you understand the controller better. Unfortunatly, I can't convey my "casual tone" when typing. I would think that you would want to know "why" the numbers are working for you and why you could change them a bunch and not have any effect on your actual boost going down the track. If you prefer for me to drop this discussion, I will since I now sound like my 4th grade teacher :tongue:

 

[Bent6]

LOL Now how did I know? :biggrin:
I've already learned long ago that you're not a person worthy of my help in any way. Posts like this just help confirm that feeling.

Not worthy. Ouch :frown:

Also confirms your arrogance.

I think this about sums you up in a nutshell.............

ar·ro·gance
noun \ˈer-ə-gən(t)s, ˈa-rə-\
Definition of ARROGANCE
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

 

[Alky V6]

I do not monitor temps. Never had a need to. In most cases it's just something to cause you to worry for no reason. It is what it is. If I had an issue with burning fluid I would be checking it. I have a ringless input shaft so there would be little to no cooler flow anyway.

I'm changing from a 9.5 to a 10.5 converter. My 9.5's are loose down low so the car doesn't have to sit on the converter long to build rpm which helps with the heat. This 10.5 will be tighter down low to keep the rpm in check after launch. The 9.5 was allowing the rpm to climb to high without accelerating the car due to the big block's torque. I already have a plan if the temps get too high. We've tested it on another car already where we modify the support bushing and it's location so that we can get the cooler flow we need. With a water cooled trans cooler the temp never gets over 120. You can nearly hold your hand on the pan when you return from a pass.

Interesting stuff.
With the ringless input, I thought someone had a stator support available that had a sealing ring groove in the ID of the support to seal against the input. Am I mistaken, or have you just decided to use a ringless shaft without the sealing ring option?

 

[Alky V6]

That was a very fair answer. I know that it appears that I am shoving this down your throat, but I am just trying to help you understand the controller better. Unfortunatly, I can't convey my "casual tone" when typing. I would think that you would want to know "why" the numbers are working for you and why you could change them a bunch and not have any effect on your actual boost going down the track. If you prefer for me to drop this discussion, I will since I now sound like my 4th grade teacher :tongue:

Yes, you can drop it after you answer one question.

Is the 'graph view' ever not a true representation of the control pressure curve that the controller will attempt to provide, no matter whether enough time is given for a ramp up or down to a particular target number in the settings?

 

[baadgn]

You can do whatever you want with it. I don't need any verification. The 'graph view' of the settings is smooth. The resulting real world boost datalog trace is smooth. That's all the verification I need.

edit: To answer your question, I can't agree because I haven't tried those numbers there, and I don't understand the controller as well as you to even try to figure it out on paper as to whether it would or not. I would have to physically plug those numbers into the controller to tell you if they affected a change. All I can tell you is, the numbers that I have in the settings now are working for me.

IM BACK !!!!!!!!!


What most people use a AMS 1000 for is for boost control so they can get a fast car down the track within different track condition situations. You keep saying it is working for you, so you don't need to put the proper numbers in there because the "fudged" ones are working for you. So your opinion is that your car is applying the power correctly with the settings you have ? then why the traction issues ? at the 1-2 shift i am at 95 % of my full target boost and thats on radials. still think your "fudged" numbers are right ?

 

[Alky V6]

Not worthy. Ouch :frown:

Also confirms your arrogance.

I think this about sums you up in a nutshell.............

ar·ro·gance
noun \ˈer-ə-gən(t)s, ˈa-rə-\
Definition of ARROGANCE
: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

You're welcome to think whatever you want of me.
I prefer to help those that are polite in their approach and not so quick to show their other face, when they have another face to show.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Interesting stuff.
With the ringless input, I thought someone had a stator support available that had a sealing ring groove in the ID of the support to seal against the input. Am I mistaken, or have you just decided to use a ringless shaft without the sealing ring option?

There are numerous designs of ringless input shafts. I have the strongest design I can run in the standard diameter without having to swap everything over to the TCI ProX shaft.

Since I never ran into overheating issues I have not had to modify the bushing inside the stator support to force fluid through the circuit.