224 Stage I Single Turbo Buick V6 does the impossible. 8.76 @ 158.7

[Alky V6]

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I'm still laughing at your challenge so it's hard to type.

You said "WARNING: These low numbers that everyone is throwing around for torque converter slippage on the top end are not realistic numbers!!!

Sorry for not figuring this out a lot sooner for you people.

Don't start adding all these stipulations for your challenge. Fact is, low slip #'s are very possible that can also 60' in the 1.20's in a 3400# car without n2o assist. Just because it's not possible with your poor combination don't mean others are lying about their #'s.

Your combination requires an ultra high flash stall which can't be coupled in the rpm window you want to run in. I'm pretty good at figuring converters out but I can't fix a poor combination with a converter. Now you are seeing there is much more to making a car fast other than hp/ci or hp/valve size....whatever it was that you set out to blow our minds with.

So here's where I will offer to help. If I have your converter info I can see if it's possible to loosen it down low and tighten it up top. I need the core size used and who manufactured it, the stator design details. How many blades and at what angle? Pump details. We'll start with positive or negative angle and how much of an angle?

I've always known that you understood my wacky combination better than most if not all the other fellas on this board. The challenge was mainly put out there to quiet the guys that have much lesser knowledge than yourself about the true capabilities of a torque converter to do wonders with a combination such as mine. The challenge is still open to them if they feel they can meet the requirements, though. :biggrin:
My statement that you quoted was aimed at those that use simple TC slip calculators without taking tire growth into consideration. Not people that datalog driveshaft speed, OBVIOUSLY!
There would be no need to care about tire growth when datalogging driveshaft speed to determine TC or transmission clutch slippage. Another case of everyone reading things into my statements. I guess I should have expected that.

That doesn't mean that I'm not still interested in seeing those 2 and 4 percent TC slip datalogs.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, how does this calculate out? 27.3" drag radial, 3.42, 1:1, 5750 rpm, 133.4mph. What growth % do you use for a DR?

The 27.3", is that actual measured? You're going to have to tell me on the tire growth.
In my case, I measure the distance from the tread to the fenderwell lip where I can see where the tire has been rubbing on the left side. I times that by 2 and add that to my tire diameter. I then calculate the percentage of tire growth from that. Not the most scientific, but it beats using zero. The actual tire growth is probably more than I'm figuring.
As the tire growth figure that's used is increased, so does the final TC slippage percentage number.

 

[Alky V6]

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I'm still laughing at your challenge so it's hard to type.

Did I get milk and peanut butter sandwich to squirt out of your nose? :biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

Its quite possible Don holds more than one of the top 5,at least on this site.

And you would like me to calculate what for you?

 

[bison]

The 27.3", is that actual measured? You're going to have to tell me on the tire growth.
In my case, I measure the distance from the tread to the fenderwell lip where I can see where the tire has been rubbing on the left side. I times that by 2 and add that to my tire diameter. I then calculate the percentage of tire growth from that. Not the most scientific, but it beats using zero. The actual tire growth is probably more than I'm figuring.
As the tire growth figure that's used is increased, so does the final TC slippage percentage number.

27.3" measured. The same torque converter used on a different combination was at 6050-6100 (not sure if the last frame of WOT was beyond quarter mile or not) went 139.4mph with the same tires and gearing. In this one it flashed 500rpm higher but still netted nearly the same slip% but it took a lot more rpm to get it to couple. I wish one of my converters was splined for your trans. Id send it and let you try it.

 

[Alky V6]

27.3" measured. The same torque converter used on a different combination was at 6050-6100 (not sure if the last frame of WOT was beyond quarter mile or not) went 139.4mph with the same tires and gearing. In this one it flashed 500rpm higher but still netted nearly the same slip% but it took a lot more rpm to get it to couple. I wish one of my converters was splined for your trans. Id send it and let you try it.

Some tire manufacturers can give you a rough tire growth at mph number if you ask. See if they can give you one.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Did I get milk and peanut butter sandwich to squirt out of your nose? :biggrin:

Something like that. But down here in the south it's an RC Cola and moonpie:biggrin:

 

[antiquettype]

What?

You are a true scientist. Measure from the wheel lip rub mark to the tire and multiply it by two and add that to the tire diameter. I wish I would have thought of that before wasting my money on a driveshaft sensor. Trying to get everyone to buy that would be 'doing the impossible'. I can not believe you can actually come on the board saying the things you say to people nd then keep coming out with more nonsense. You tell people to read your threads from the begining, and I have. I can say I have never seen anyone talk in more circles than you. Everytime someone has you cornered on some b.s. you type, you think you slither around it. Tony has posted a quote recently and you chastise him for taking the time to find it. You toldus to read all your posts, he is just trying to be thorough with his assignment and found out the teacher is full of nonsense.
I think any turbo buick in any combination is cool. I think your car is cool because of that and becaue it is different. I think you need to take responsibility for your actions and the things you say. This whole thread started with you asking for it, so you got it. Boo Hoo.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I wish one of my converters was splined for your trans. Id send it and let you try it.

It wouldn't be worth the $$$ to ship it to him. Getting the top end slip is not an issue, getting it loose enough down low is.

I will stand by and say my 9.5's are looser down low than any other converter out their that can rival it's coupling ability. But without knowing his current converter spec's sending him anything is a waste of energy.

So Don, you gonna send me some info? You don't have to post it in public if you don't want to. What I know about it will honestly be kept confidential. I'm curious if I can help.

 

[Alky V6]

You are a true scientist. Measure from the wheel lip rub mark to the tire and multiply it by two and add that to the tire diameter. I wish I would have thought of that before wasting my money on a driveshaft sensor. Trying to get everyone to buy that would be 'doing the impossible'. I can not believe you can actually come on the board saying the things you say to people nd then keep coming out with more nonsense. You tell people to read your threads from the begining, and I have. I can say I have never seen anyone talk in more circles than you. Everytime someone has you cornered on some b.s. you type, you think you slither around it. Tony has posted a quote recently and you chastise him for taking the time to find it. You toldus to read all your posts, he is just trying to be thorough with his assignment and found out the teacher is full of nonsense.
I think any turbo buick in any combination is cool. I think your car is cool because of that and becaue it is different. I think you need to take responsibility for your actions and the things you say. This whole thread started with you asking for it, so you got it. Boo Hoo.

Yeah. I'm crying bucket loads.
Using any figure for tire growth in a TC slip calculation is better than using ZERO. I hope you've at least learned that from this thread.

 

[HighPSI]

My calculations were for my situation, but I'd like to see those 2-4% slippage datalogs.

I didn't see where the 2-4% numbers came from, but if someone can explain to me how to post a log, I will post up a log of a TSM car making similar hp to your combination. On this log, the rpm resolution is 50 rpm, so the margin of error is at most about 1% and probably less. FWIW: On this log the DS RPM is 6850 and the engin rpm is 7200. If my math is correct, that's under 5%.

I am curious how you are determining you are getting a lot of tire slippage through all of 2nd gear without a d/s sensor? Are you basing this on engine rpm?

 

[antiquettype]

I need to learn alot but tire growth is not one. Get a driveshaft sensor, and YOU will learn something. For one, you can estimate tire growth WAY better than measuring to a quarter panel that better be in constant motion relative to your tire. For two, you will know better what your car is doing at every point of the 1/4 mile. Maybe you will be able to get your second gear tire slippage straightened out. You may even find a powerglide would be better for you.

 

[Alky V6]

It wouldn't be worth the $$$ to ship it to him. Getting the top end slip is not an issue, getting it loose enough down low is.

I will stand by and say my 9.5's are looser down low than any other converter out their that can rival it's coupling ability. But without knowing his current converter spec's sending him anything is a waste of energy.

So Don, you gonna send me some info? You don't have to post it in public if you don't want to. What I know about it will honestly be kept confidential. I'm curious if I can help.

I'm not worried about keeping secrets. Most, anyway.
I'm presently using a 9.5 welded unit, so the most I can tell you about it is that it has a positive pump and appears to be based on a Toyota core.
The supplier hit the nail on the head for the launch parameters and you know what the shift rpm drops are. I'm sure you have a better idea on what the rpm drops should be. The top end is loose, though. The supplier did state that he set this initial configuration at the loosest possible for this core configuration. Any looser would have meant going to a nine inch.
This TC stalls at 3200 off the nitrous, and stalls over 6000 rpm on the nitrous hit. I don't know how high because I chose to get off the throttle before finding that out, or twisting my stator support out of the pump cover.
When the nitrous shuts off, the boost control devices are set such that the rpm settles at around 5400 rpm and the boost settles at around 175-180 kPa MAP.

 

[Alky V6]

I didn't see where the 2-4% numbers came from, but if someone can explain to me how to post a log, I will post up a log of a TSM car making similar hp to your combination. On this log, the rpm resolution is 50 rpm, so the margin of error is at most about 1% and probably less. FWIW: On this log the DS RPM is 6850 and the engin rpm is 7200. If my math is correct, that's under 5%.

I am curious how you are determining you are getting a lot of tire slippage through all of 2nd gear without a d/s sensor? Are you basing this on engine rpm?

Those numbers don't appear in this thread, but I've seen silly numbers like that in the past.

Correct. The rpm is fluctuating through second gear. It's possible it could be a slipping 2nd clutch, but I don't think so. I've checked the fluid and it looks and smells like brand new. Still, that doesn't always rule out a slipping clutch. The fluctuation settles right down after the shift to third.
Usually, when I lower the boost a little for second gear, the fluctuation stops. On the PB run at Firebird, the controller numbers were on the high side. I was spending the whole day lowering controller numbers from the settings that were working for me at the home track. Firebird just wasn't hooking as good as home that day.

 

[Alky V6]

I need to learn alot but tire growth is not one. Get a driveshaft sensor, and YOU will learn something. For one, you can estimate tire growth WAY better than measuring to a quarter panel that better be in constant motion relative to your tire. For two, you will know better what your car is doing at every point of the 1/4 mile. Maybe you will be able to get your second gear tire slippage straightened out. You may even find a powerglide would be better for you.

Yes, I'm well aware of the wonders of electronic gadgets. I don't need you to tell me about that. A datalogging system (other than the ECM) is on the to do list. The car has gotten to that point, but a fuel system has priority right now. Until that time, I try my best to get by, just like others on a budget.

I'm not one of those independently wealthy individual types that can go out and snatch up the latest electronic gadgets to hit the market. If you want to hold that against me, then have at it.

And, you're the one that came up with the teacher bit. I do know a lot, but not everything. All I try to do here is share my experiences and what I think I've learned from them. People are welcome to take it, or simply leave it.

I think that is a very brave thing for people to do in these times. Share their experiences and deductions. It surely opens one up to attacks from certain types of individuals.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I'm not worried about keeping secrets. Most, anyway.
I'm presently using a 9.5 welded unit, so the most I can tell you about it is that it has a positive pump and appears to be based on a Toyota core.
The supplier hit the nail on the head for the launch parameters and you know what the shift rpm drops are. I'm sure you have a better idea on what the rpm drops should be. The top end is loose, though. The supplier did state that he set this initial configuration at the loosest possible for this core configuration. Any looser would have meant going to a nine inch.
This TC stalls at 3200 off the nitrous, and stalls over 6000 rpm on the nitrous hit. I don't know how high because I chose to get off the throttle before finding that out, or twisting my stator support out of the pump cover.
When the nitrous shuts off, the boost control devices are set such that the rpm settles at around 5400 rpm and the boost settles at around 175-180 kPa MAP.

Who built the converter? You got a part #? Sometimes I can get all the info I need from a part #.

What are the stator details? 15 blade on a ?? degree angle? Unless it's a hand built piece most of the Toyota stuff I've seen is 15 blade. I'd have to do some research to find the stator blade angle.

I'm guessing if the top is that loose he has very little if any positive angle in the pump. A standard 15 blade Toyota core with little or no positive pump angle could act like yours is acting.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Correct. The rpm is fluctuating through second gear. It's possible it could be a slipping 2nd clutch, but I don't think so. I've checked the fluid and it looks and smells like brand new. Still, that doesn't always rule out a slipping clutch. The fluctuation settles right down after the shift to third.
Usually, when I lower the boost a little for second gear, the fluctuation stops. On the PB run at Firebird, the controller numbers were on the high side. I was spending the whole day lowering controller numbers from the settings that were working for me at the home track. Firebird just wasn't hooking as good as home that day.

Fluctuating as in spiking or just a small rpm wave? Is the track bumpy at that point in the run?

 

[HighPSI]

Dusty knows his stuff! I can't for the life of me understand why you choose to spend your hard earned $$$ elsewhere. Especially, if you are on a budget.

Once you get a driveshaft sensor, you will be amazed at how helpful it is. In addition to calculating convertor slip, you can actually know if your tires are really spinning and most importantly WHEN/WHERE they are spinning on your run. I GUARANTEE your AMS1000 Operation for Dummies thread will need a name change :smile:
I don't know if your engine management can support it, but they are relatively cheap, about the same as 3-4 tanks of NOS :wink:

 

[Otto J]

And they're spooling a 91mm too? And I'm not talking about an ultra high rpm engine either.

Atleast 88mm turbos which would leave them with the same problems,they are using nitrous most likely and are probably high rpm engines also.

 

[Alky V6]

Who built the converter? You got a part #? Sometimes I can get all the info I need from a part #.

What are the stator details? 15 blade on a ?? degree angle? Unless it's a hand built piece most of the Toyota stuff I've seen is 15 blade. I'd have to do some research to find the stator blade angle.

I'm guessing if the top is that loose he has very little if any positive angle in the pump. A standard 15 blade Toyota core with little or no positive pump angle could act like yours is acting.

The pump is positive. It's not neutral. I could try to eyeball an angle for you if you think that would help.
I'm really not interested in giving up the manufacturer, for obvious reasons.
I'm going to wait until after I have the 3.42s, fuel system and yes, the DSS installed, and some data before I enlist your help, Dusty.
I will also be giving the manufacturer first shot at seeing if they can make a worthwhile change in this TC. I'm sure you would expect and appreciate the same if it were you that supplied it.
The timeline for all these changes will be like my usual. As funds are available.