Advancement of fuel delivery?

[Alky V6]

Let the Celebration begin!!!

I replaced the hose from the nitrous gas solenoid to the distribution block with a 3 foot length. It was 1 foot.

IT KILLED THE LEAN SPIKE!!!

(Picture Don dancing and hopping in the shop)

I also went from 25 to 23 degrees of retard.

It's time to play, boyzzz!!!

All my jetting info has been posted. I think. It's at the 300 or 305 jetting at the moment.

There is still a lean spike, but it is very tiny compared to what it was. I think the lean spike I'm getting now is mainly all the air being pushed out of the lines after the solenoids before the nitrous gas/fuel actually starts flowing from the nozzles. The same kind of thing I'm getting with my aux fuel system on activation. The lean spike turns around to head rich again at 2873 rpm. Before it was turning around at 3084 rpm.

This is going to surprise you. The extent of the peak with the one foot length hose was 13.67:1 @ 3082 rpm, where it turned to go rich. By 3587 rpm it had richened to 12.16:1.
The lean spike peak now with the 3 foot hose is 12.49:1 @ 2873 rpm where it turns to go rich, and by 3362 rpm it had richened to 10.98:1. The lean spike now is much sharper going lean and then falls like a rock back to rich.

She sounds like someone cranked up the accelerator pump now. 3362 rpm in a blink of an eye. The datalog lost comm at 3362 rpm so I didn't get anymore than that. Next testing is at the track Saturday night at Barona Drag Strip.

Yippee!!!

The fuel sets the horsepower level. The nitrous sets the n/f ratio.
The jetting is square at 30. 6 jets of each. Fuel pressure is 45 (referenced). Bottle pressure 750 to 1100 psi. The range of alky allows me to use any bottle pressure between 750 and 1100 without having to change jetting. The horsepower level, of course, changes. The higher bottle pressure means cinch up those belts.

 

[charlief1]

(Picture Don dancing and hopping in the shop)

As long as he doesn't take his clothes off and expect money to dance I'm OK with it. LOL:biggrin:
That's great news Donnie

 

[Chevota]

Haven't we discussed this "hose length" issue before?:tongue: J/K Glad to hear things are positively progressing Don.

 

[Alky V6]

Haven't we discussed this "hose length" issue before?:tongue: J/K Glad to hear things are positively progressing Don.

Yes we did. And it worked!!!:biggrin: You never know for sure until you try it.

The bottle pressure with the latest test with the 3 ft. hose was around 900 psi. A good average bottle pressure.

 

[Alky V6]

Alcohol fuel and engine oil

A very interesting result occurred today when I changed the engine oil for the first time since the recent engine O/H. I expected the engine oil to be pretty milky by this point. I've burned through about 15 gallons of methanol, did a car show appearance which requires quite a few short starts and stops with the car, and about a dozen or so midrange WOT testing with the nitrous. The oil drained out looking like I had just poured it in. One thing that I paid attention to more than usual was making sure that at least periodically I would let the engine idle for about 5 to 10 minutes after getting fully warmed up. I would also un-cap the oil tank reservoir and cover the opening with a shop rag so that water and fuel that boiled off could escape easily. I've heard of alcohol racers draining their oil and heating it to boil off moisture and fuel so they could re-use it. I just let the engine do it for me. The crankcase evac pump and the drysump pump help a lot in pulling the steam and fuel vapor out of the engine.
Those alcohol racers that build their setup with a small or no cooling system would most likely not be able to do this. They would be stuck having to change out their oil often. In certain cases, after every pass or 2.
My setup is such that I could actually drive the car on the street for a long drive with the only annoyance being that I'd have to stop for fuel pretty often. A larger fuel cell would take care of that problem. A true street driveable, methanol fueled 8 second car.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

The fuel sets the horsepower level. The nitrous sets the n/f ratio.
The jetting is square at 30. 6 jets of each. Fuel pressure is 45 (referenced). Bottle pressure 750 to 1100 psi. The range of alky allows me to use any bottle pressure between 750 and 1100 without having to change jetting. The horsepower level, of course, changes. The higher bottle pressure means cinch up those belts.

If the fuel set the hp level then your last statement wouldn't be true

I know what you mean though and it can be looked at both ways. They have to have each other to make power.

A 30 jet on a V8 is roughly a 275 shot so your jetting is flowing around 200hp worth of n2o. On a turbo car, you typically pick up more power than that with gas but I'm not sure which way the alky would effect those #'s.

 

[Alky V6]

If the fuel set the hp level then your last statement wouldn't be true

I know what you mean though and it can be looked at both ways. They have to have each other to make power.

A 30 jet on a V8 is roughly a 275 shot so your jetting is flowing around 200hp worth of n2o. On a turbo car, you typically pick up more power than that with gas but I'm not sure which way the alky would effect those #'s.

The horsepower level based on the nitrous bottle pressure is strickly the difference in horsepower level between a rich alcohol mixture versus a lean alcohol mixture. The maximum horsepower attainable with a max power n/f ratio will always be dictated by the amount of fuel available. Fuel makes power. Not oxygen. Oxygen is only the oxidizer. A given amount of nitrous injection will support a paricular hp level. The fuel to make that particular horsepower level must also be available. It is not the oxygen atom that disassociates and expands when heated, it is the fuel molecule.

This website http://www.koehlerinjection.com/ has a very useful calculator for estimating nitrous system jet sizes. According to it, your calculation is wrong. Remember, alky is supplying some oxygen too. Using the calculator, the only way you can change the estimated hp level is by changing the fuel jet size. Changing the nitrous jet size will change the n/f ratio, which in itself will affect the hp level for a set amount of fuel. That doesn't mean that you are at optimum hp capacity for the amount of fuel you are injecting. You could be injecting too little nitrous for the fuel being injected which would make for a rich mixture and you'd lose out on hp because of the rich mixture. Much fuel going unburnt. Add more nitrous and bring the n/f mixture in line and you will make more power with the correct mixture ratio for the amount of fuel being injected. Nitrous is an adjustable air supply, but air doesn't make power. Fuel does. And you need the correct amount of air(oxygen) to get the most out of that amount of fuel. I hope I didn't confuse things more for you.

When looking at the maximum obtainable hp level of a nitrous system, look at the fuel jet and the supply pressure to that jet. Then calculate how much nitrous will be needed to properly oxidize that amount of fuel at a safe n/f ratio.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

The horsepower level based on the nitrous bottle pressure is strickly the difference in horsepower level between a rich alcohol mixture versus a lean alcohol mixture. The maximum horsepower attainable with a max power n/f ratio will always be dictated by the amount of fuel available. Fuel makes power. Not oxygen. Oxygen is only the oxidizer. A given amount of nitrous injection will support a paricular hp level. The fuel to make that particular horsepower level must also be available.

The correct mixture will make more power regardless. If you want to break it down. The ability to burn more fuel makes hp so I agree with you. A 30 jet will make 200hp with the proper amount of fuel added.

Same goes for boost. The extra oxygen allows you to burn more fuel which increases power. The fuel can't make power on it's own without having boost or n2o to feed it.

 

[Alky V6]

The correct mixture will make more power regardless. If you want to break it down. The ability to burn more fuel makes hp so I agree with you. A 30 jet will make 200hp with the proper amount of fuel added.

Same goes for boost. The extra oxygen allows you to burn more fuel which increases power. The fuel can't make power on it's own without having boost or n2o to feed it.

Yes. In the long run, you must have both. But when dealing with nitrous, the fuel jet is what you look at to calculate potential max hp level. Consider this. You can have a certain lean alky mixture (more oxygen) that will net less horsepower than if you backed off the oxygen (nitrous level) and burned the fuel at a more optimum ratio. I kind of proved that with my latest testing. As I added more fuel to a constant nitrous value, the hp increased as the mixture went from lean to not so lean.

Six #30 jets on gasoline with a 45 psi supply pressure to the fuel will be capable of 655 hp. I think you're calculating with carb pressures. Under 6 psi?

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Yes. In the long run, you must have both. But when dealing with nitrous, the fuel jet is what you look at to calculate potential max hp level. Consider this. You can have a certain lean alky mixture (more oxygen) that will net less horsepower than if you backed off the oxygen (nitrous level) and burned the fuel at a more optimum ratio. I kind of proved that with my latest testing. As I added more fuel to a constant nitrous value, the hp increased as the mixture went from lean to not so lean.

Six #30 jets on gasoline with a 45 psi supply pressure to the fuel will be capable of 655 hp. I think you're calculating with carb pressures. Under 6 psi?

I'm speaking only of the 30 nitrous jet. It is roughly a 275 shot on a V8 with the proper a/f ratio. 6 of them is in the 200 hp range.

Alky throws an entire new loop into the equation for me but I'm trying to make sense of the #'s you've put out there. Your saying you think your around a 300hp shot.......... but because of the nature of alky, it's only half that. Hang on here:biggrin: BUT your fuel jetting would be worth 655 on gas. Now since alky needs so much more fuel we could say the fuel jetting you are running will support 300hp on alky. So this leads me to believe your actually seeing 225-300hp from your current jetting.

 

[Otto J]

You use a fuel solenoid Don? I run the needed fueling thru the injectors and control it with the ecu,you can use Fuel #s per hour to figure your additional horsepower

 

[Alky V6]

I'm speaking only of the 30 nitrous jet. It is roughly a 275 shot on a V8 with the proper a/f ratio. 6 of them is in the 200 hp range.

Alky throws an entire new loop into the equation for me but I'm trying to make sense of the #'s you've put out there. Your saying you think your around a 300hp shot.......... but because of the nature of alky, it's only half that. Hang on here:biggrin: BUT your fuel jetting would be worth 655 on gas. Now since alky needs so much more fuel we could say the fuel jetting you are running will support 300hp on alky. So this leads me to believe your actually seeing 225-300hp from your current jetting.

Remember that half of the methanol molecule is oxygen. So the methanol is supplying some of the needed oxygen itself. What a nitrous jet will support on gasoline is a little different than what it will support with methanol. Mathematically, anyway. I still believe that the actual amount of HP that gets to the ground with a nitrous/methanol mix is half of what the math claims it to be.

 

[charlief1]

Boy I wish I'd foud your thread earlier Donnie. This confirms some of what I'm up to at the moment. Just not as wild though.

 

[Alky V6]

You use a fuel solenoid Don? I run the needed fueling thru the injectors and control it with the ecu,you can use Fuel #s per hour to figure your additional horsepower

I'm already maxing out the elec-160s and the mech-nozzles off-the-nitrous. There was no extra capacity to feed the fuel through the e-injectors. If I remember right you're talking about around 63.8 lbs/hr of fuel per cylinder with the nitrous system with a 30 jet @ 45 psi feed pressure. Also, it is much easier to control the overall nitrous system and the e-fueling keeping the fueling separate. I'm having a hard enough time controlling the lean spike when the mech-nozzles come online using the fuel map. I would be a total wreck trying to include the nitrous fueling overlap on top of that on the fuel map.

 

[Alky V6]

I think I wrote about this earlier. Maybe in my intake manifold thread. To minimize the amount of lean spike when the mech-nozzles come online, I'm going to wire up a momentary switch to purge the aux system of air at the beginning of the run. The more I think about it, the more I like it. The nozzles are higher than the rest of the system back to the solenoid, so once purged, the system up to the nozzles will be filled with fuel and ready to go. So now I need to remember to purge the N20 system and the aux system before staging. Purging the aux system will be the more critical operation since I'll be lowering or eliminating the compensating fuel wall in the fuel map. If I were to forget to purge the aux system, and without the lean compensating fuel wall in the fuel map, a lean backfire will surely result. Not a good thing.

 

[Alky V6]

Boy I wish I'd foud your thread earlier Donnie. This confirms some of what I'm up to at the moment. Just not as wild though.

I'm glad you find it interesting, Charlie. This is my brain storming thread. Writing this stuff down helps me think things out. It also a way to record things so I can go back and see where I've been. Not to mention the feedback from others helps a lot too.

 

[Alky V6]

Taking jet flow compensating out of the picture, a 30 nitrous jet with a 30 fuel jet using methanol at a fuel pressure of 45 psi will yield 319 hp. The calculator I use does not take the strength of the fuel mixture into consideration. This is actually a fairly rich, and safe setup, so hp would be down from the calculated 319 number.

Some specs for this setup:
n/f ratio = 1.68:1
lbs/hr nitrous = 641.7 Total of all six cylinders.
lbs/hr fuel (methanol) = 382.6 Total of all six cylinders.

I've found that the 1.68:1 n/f ratio allows me to use a nitrous bottle pressure of 750 to 1100 psi without having to change jets for differing bottle pressure conditions. Any richer than this and I get rich missing on a low bottle pressure. The lower bottle pressure yielding a richer n/f ratio and less power from the hit. As outside temps go up and bottle pressure goes up, more power is realized due to the resulting leaner n/f ratio. The higher bottle pressure delivering more nitrous over time and giving a leaner, meaner nitrous mixture.

 

[charlief1]

I'm glad you find it interesting, Charlie. This is my brain storming thread. Writing this stuff down helps me think things out. It also a way to record things so I can go back and see where I've been. Not to mention the feedback from others helps a lot too.

I agree 100% with you on keeping it up for the future so you can see where you've been. I started a mod post in the before black section that I need to update but haven't gotten any further right now. Money's tight so I'm stuck at an idle. What you're posting is great for what I'm doing and confirming what I've gotten into so far. Theory is great but having someone post thier experience helps when you get around to doing something for sure. I may never be as fast as you are but I will have fun with it for sure.:biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

I'm speaking only of the 30 nitrous jet. It is roughly a 275 shot on a V8 with the proper a/f ratio. 6 of them is in the 200 hp range.

Alky throws an entire new loop into the equation for me but I'm trying to make sense of the #'s you've put out there. Your saying you think your around a 300hp shot.......... but because of the nature of alky, it's only half that. Hang on here:biggrin: BUT your fuel jetting would be worth 655 on gas. Now since alky needs so much more fuel we could say the fuel jetting you are running will support 300hp on alky. So this leads me to believe your actually seeing 225-300hp from your current jetting.

Mathematically, the jetting I'm using should net around 300 hp, mathematically.
No one is sure why the net is less than the mathematical result. I've seen some speculate that the mixture of nitrous and methanol is so cold that a fairly complete combustion of all the fuel is impossible. I actually tend to agree with this thinking. Alcohol makes best power when the incoming mixture is at around 160 degrees F. This seems to net the best vaporization of the methanol fuel. I think that's why most don't bother with intercoolers. They let the raised charge air temp bring the mixture to an optimum temp. Of course, with the boost levels that are more common these days, the charge air temp can get quite a bit higher than 160 degrees F. Even after being mixed with the alcohol. That's why some blown alky applications have to run mixtures into the high 2s:1 to cool the charge down. Get too far above that optimum charge temp and bad things begin to happen fast with methanol.

 

[Alky V6]

How would acceleration g-force play into the purged aux system? Would the fuel just spill back in the system and bleed out to the rear most nozzle during initial launch, resulting in an air pocket for the more forward cylinders? Looks like lean spike compensation in the main fuel map would still be necessary.