Advancement of fuel delivery?

[Dusty Bradford]

The looser converter should do wonders for this issue. Getting enough stall speed so you can use a smaller jet to get the car on boost is a good move IMO. The jetting your using is a noticeable hit on a 600ci big block.

 

[Alky V6]

A quote from a resource I use.

"A charge-air cooler is not required for detonation control in methanol where vaporization cooling with mixture enrichment can be done. However mixture enrichment can be used with charge-air cooling as well. Tolerance to pre-ignition or knock becomes great. Increases in engine compression and/or boost can be done for even more power."

With charge-air cooling, a mixture of 4.5:1 can be used as a power mixture rather than 3.4:1. Less fuel consumption. Less fuel in the oil.
Instead of changing the oil after each pass, I can go the whole weekend.

 

[Alky V6]

The looser converter should do wonders for this issue. Getting enough stall speed so you can use a smaller jet to get the car on boost is a good move IMO. The jetting your using is a noticeable hit on a 600ci big block.

Nitrous paired with gasoline, I'm sure is a noticeable hit. Is this 600ci BB pairing nitrous with methanol?

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Nitrous paired with gasoline, I'm sure is a noticeable hit. Is this 600ci BB pairing nitrous with methanol?

Just speaking in general. The amount of nitrous flowed by your jet size is considerable on a large engine. I'm sure this amount of n2o injected into your small motor is really aggravating your issues with the fuel getting too cold. I don't think heating the air is going to help enough. Getting the converter looser so you can use much less n2o should be the answer.

 

[Alky V6]

I've recently come across some info that somewhat confirms my suspicions of the chilling effect that nitrous/methanol mixtures have on the combustion process. When shot levels get past a certain point, there can be enough cooling from the large amounts of methanol and nitrous oxide that is vaporizing and disassociating (heat of vaporization affect) during the compression stroke, that it cools down the heating of the mixture enough to retard some of the mixture from vaporizing and disassociating.
The mixture quenches or retards the heat build up during normal compression of the mixture and during combustion. Heat that is necessary to disassociate the molecules of the nitrous oxide and methanol for proper and complete combustion.

The shot level that was suggested to be this limit was a 300hp shot... on a V8. That's 37.5hp per cylinder.
37.5hp per cylinder on a V6 is 225hp. Hmmm. That must be why that 200 shot worked so good.

 

[Alky V6]

Just speaking in general. The amount of nitrous flowed by your jet size is considerable on a large engine. I'm sure this amount of n2o injected into your small motor is really aggravating your issues with the fuel getting too cold. I don't think heating the air is going to help enough. Getting the converter looser so you can use much less n2o should be the answer.

I agree.

 

[TurboTR]

So you're thinking just the 300 shot of nitrous + the no boost amount of alcohol (ie small compared to wot) is making the charge too cool to vaporize/disassociate N2O properly right, even during compression?

Maybe you could try an experiment with heated water into the intercooler instead and see if the theory pans out any. Maybe run engine water through it Just as an experiment.

TurboTR

 

[Alky V6]

So you're thinking just the 300 shot of nitrous + the no boost amount of alcohol (ie small compared to wot) is making the charge too cool to vaporize/disassociate N2O properly right, even during compression?

Maybe you could try an experiment with heated water into the intercooler instead and see if the theory pans out any. Maybe run engine water through it Just as an experiment.

TurboTR

First I'll address the heated intercooler. I've performed runs within 1/2 hour of each other. 1/2 hour is not enough time for the intercooler tank to cool down. And the water does get quite hot. You don't want to stick your hand in it. There was really no drastic difference, if any between the runs.

The example of the 300 shot being the limit was taken off a n/a V8 on alcohol. This is not just 'my thinking'. This is the conclusion another person that was playing with nitrous paired with methanol came to. Typically, a n/a V8 on alcohol will run as much static compression as possible. 16:1 would be an appropriate target. I'm running 9.27:1. So, already I'm at a disadvantage when it comes to relying on my static compression to vaporize my mixture, let alone adding the nos to it. If a fella at 16:1 is having a problem at that shot, I'm sure I would have the same problem, if not worse, at 9.27:1.

I'm not sure if this fella was running 16:1. I wouldn't doubt it though. Some of these fellas on nitrous don't back their compression down like you'd think. I'm pretty positive he's running a lot more than 9.27:1 on a n/a alcohol V8 though.

 

[baadgn]

Maybe I can get some of you large single turbo guys out there to participate in a simple comparison. This is something I've been wondering about for some time now. A lot of you have the 'perfect' combination, but from some of the videos I've seen, you're sitting at the starting line well after the light has turned green, still spooling your turbo up. What's up with that? You're lucky it's a 3 amber tree. That's great for a pretty timeslip, but how do you win races like that?

Comparison test:
Pull your car into the staging lights.
Bring the rpm up to 2400 rpm only, on the transbrake or foot brake.
On the amber before the green, go to WOT and release the brake. You must do this last step correctly for the comparison to be meaningful.
Let's limit boost to 27 psi.

Nothing can be done to help pre-spool the turbo before the release of the brake, besides bringing the rpm up to 2400. After the release of the brake, anything goes.

Better yet. Do this comparison test on a .500 pro light.

Post your timeslips, with incrementals. Or not,... and live the rest of your life in shame. :biggrin:

YouTube - TSO FINAL NORWALK, OHIO 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc2lTHthjQs


At the 59 sec mark on the first vid you can hear how my car spools, on the 2nd vid I came into the lights last and that was a .032 light Don I dont come into the light at only 2400 because i can be higher (converter) if I flat punch my car its 2.2 secs to 9 pounds I get 7.3 % slip. I run 1/8 mile pro tree racing against outlaw drag radial cars that have 500-1000 more hp than I have do you think I can afford to sit at the light ? I have been down your road big turbo tight converter 8.48 et 11 sec spoolup. So when I TELL you that your converter is wrong and the turbo is wrong its me trying to save you time and money

 

[Alky V6]

YouTube - TSO FINAL NORWALK, OHIO 2009

YouTube - 2009 BPG TSO Finals


At the 59 sec mark on the first vid you can hear how my car spools, on the 2nd vid I came into the lights last and that was a .032 light Don I dont come into the light at only 2400 because i can be higher (converter) if I flat punch my car its 2.2 secs to 9 pounds I get 7.3 % slip. I run 1/8 mile pro tree racing against outlaw drag radial cars that have 500-1000 more hp than I have do you think I can afford to sit at the light ? I have been down your road big turbo tight converter 8.48 et 11 sec spoolup. So when I TELL you that your converter is wrong and the turbo is wrong its me trying to save you time and money

So you're another person that has experience using nitrous to assist spooling too? Judging by the videos, it doesn't look like it.

 

[baadgn]

So you're another person that has experience using nitrous to assist spooling too? Judging by the videos, it doesn't look like it.

what nitrous ???

 

[GNBRETT]

what nitrous ???

 

[Alky V6]

Look guys. I'm not building a TSM, TSO, ATM or any other class car where I'm dictated to on how to build my car. I will also not be pressured by any one person on how I should build my car.
Tony. Was I in your ear when you had that large turbo and tight torque converter "TELLING" you how wrong you were? Nitrous sure would have helped you out, by the way.
The whole purpose of building this car was to go where no one else has gone. It certainly wasn't the plan to build another cookie cutter car.
Am I going to run into walls along the way? Of course I am. I'm not asking anyone out there to keep me from running into those walls, am I?
I've learned quite a bit from this journey, and I plan to learn just as much more. I'm even taking the time to write this all down for others to enjoy. If this thread is frustrating for you, then don't read it. It's that simple.
I do appreciate the constructive feedback I get from most of you, but remember one very important thing, I will decide what goes into my car, and at the time I decide.
Don't think for a moment that I didn't have a clue that the t/c was too tight with this new turbo combination. I had my reasons for experimenting with this turbo and converter combination as long as I did. It's called, learning all you can. Now that I feel there's no more to learn from this combination, it's time to move on. I find it amazing that someone would ridicule me for using a large turbo and tight t/c when they themselves did it too. And even worse, without the help of nitrous.

Again, I will explain the main goal of this project. It is to build a turbocharged stage I Buick V6 using methanol and nitrous to help spool the turbo. The plan is to have a car that I can idle into staging and bring to launch readiness within 1 second or less.

The fact that nitrous is in the mix, and it's in the mix to stay, means that the converter and turbo will most likely be different than the cookie cutter variety.

Those of you that have gone the cookie cutter route and have had success, I applaud you. I'm sure it was a long haul for most of you. There are plenty of people that are interested in your combination so that they can fast track their way to where you are now. Go share your combination with them. Respectfully, I'm not interested. I choose to make and travel my own path.

The challenge is what I enjoy the most about this journey.

 

[baadgn]

Look guys. I'm not building a TSM, TSO, ATM or any other class car where I'm dictated to on how to build my car. I will also not be pressured by any one person on how I should build my car.
Tony. Was I in your ear when you had that large turbo and tight torque converter "TELLING" you how wrong you were? Nitrous sure would have helped you out, by the way.
The whole purpose of building this car was to go where no one else has gone. It certainly wasn't the plan to build another cookie cutter car.
Am I going to run into walls along the way? Of course I am. I'm not asking anyone out there to keep me from running into those walls, am I?
I've learned quite a bit from this journey, and I plan to learn just as much more. I'm even taking the time to write this all down for others to enjoy. If this thread is frustrating for you, then don't read it. It's that simple.
I do appreciate the constructive feedback I get from most of you, but remember one very important thing, I will decide what goes into my car, and at the time I decide.
Don't think for a moment that I didn't have a clue that the t/c was too tight with this new turbo combination. I had my reasons for experimenting with this turbo and converter combination as long as I did. It's called, learning all you can. Now that I feel there's no more to learn from this combination, it's time to move on. I find it amazing that someone would ridicule me for using a large turbo and tight t/c when they themselves did it too. And even worse, without the help of nitrous.

Again, I will explain the main goal of this project. It is to build a turbocharged stage I Buick V6 using methanol and nitrous to help spool the turbo. The plan is to have a car that I can idle into staging and bring to launch readiness within 1 second or less.

The fact that nitrous is in the mix, and it's in the mix to stay, means that the converter and turbo will most likely be different than the cookie cutter variety.

Those of you that have gone the cookie cutter route and have had success, I applaud you. I'm sure it was a long haul for most of you. There are plenty of people that are interested in your combination so that they can fast track their way to where you are now. Go share your combination with them. Respectfully, I'm not interested. I choose to make and travel my own path.

The challenge is what I enjoy the most about this journey.

Don,

If this the route that you are choosing to go to be different then do it!! don't ask people (Dusty) who by the way have already done it the "cookie cutter way" what they think. He told you last year your converter was wrong but you dismissed it, now you want his opinion. As far as ridculing you sorry you feel thats what I am doing. I told you that your converter was too tight and your turbo is too big. As of now you have changed the converter setup twice since I TOLD you so, but you want to do it "your way" what did you learn ? That dusty and i were right in telling you the converter is too tight after 300 hp worth of nitrous a flapper valve, spool assist in the trans, AMS boost controller, you have come to this realization. So now you are going to put in a looser converter with the idea that with the new converter you will be able to use less nitrous to spool isnt this getting you closer to the "cookie cutter way". Don I can respect that you want to be different for whatever the reason may be. The cookie cutters are only trying to help you not force you into anything if you don't like what we have to say then dont ask our opinion. There is no challenge if at every crossroad you ask for help, With all due respect GOOD LUCK

 

[charlief1]

Look guys. I'm not building a TSM, TSO, ATM or any other class car where I'm dictated to on how to build my car. I will also not be pressured by any one person on how I should build my car.
Tony. Was I in your ear when you had that large turbo and tight torque converter "TELLING" you how wrong you were? Nitrous sure would have helped you out, by the way.
The whole purpose of building this car was to go where no one else has gone. It certainly wasn't the plan to build another cookie cutter car.
Am I going to run into walls along the way? Of course I am. I'm not asking anyone out there to keep me from running into those walls, am I?
I've learned quite a bit from this journey, and I plan to learn just as much more. I'm even taking the time to write this all down for others to enjoy. If this thread is frustrating for you, then don't read it. It's that simple.
I do appreciate the constructive feedback I get from most of you, but remember one very important thing, I will decide what goes into my car, and at the time I decide.
Don't think for a moment that I didn't have a clue that the t/c was too tight with this new turbo combination. I had my reasons for experimenting with this turbo and converter combination as long as I did. It's called, learning all you can. Now that I feel there's no more to learn from this combination, it's time to move on. I find it amazing that someone would ridicule me for using a large turbo and tight t/c when they themselves did it too. And even worse, without the help of nitrous.

Again, I will explain the main goal of this project. It is to build a turbocharged stage I Buick V6 using methanol and nitrous to help spool the turbo. The plan is to have a car that I can idle into staging and bring to launch readiness within 1 second or less.

The fact that nitrous is in the mix, and it's in the mix to stay, means that the converter and turbo will most likely be different than the cookie cutter variety.

Those of you that have gone the cookie cutter route and have had success, I applaud you. I'm sure it was a long haul for most of you. There are plenty of people that are interested in your combination so that they can fast track their way to where you are now. Go share your combination with them. Respectfully, I'm not interested. I choose to make and travel my own path.

The challenge is what I enjoy the most about this journey.

Don, Please don't get into an uproar over this. I've loved reading what you've done so far because it kinda pertains to what I'm doing. You've given me ideas on what I need to do with what I'm working on and yes; you're a little hard headed but I do uderstand. I'm a carb/turbo guy that's trying to get into the 11's without the use of nitrous so please listen and make an informed decision.

Don,

If this the route that you are choosing to go to be different then do it!! don't ask people (Dusty) who by the way have already done it the "cookie cutter way" what they think. He told you last year your converter was wrong but you dismissed it, now you want his opinion. As far as ridculing you sorry you feel thats what I am doing. I told you that your converter was too tight and your turbo is too big. As of now you have changed the converter setup twice since I TOLD you so, but you want to do it "your way" what did you learn ? That dusty and i were right in telling you the converter is too tight after 300 hp worth of nitrous a flapper valve, spool assist in the trans, AMS boost controller, you have come to this realization. So now you are going to put in a looser converter with the idea that with the new converter you will be able to use less nitrous to spool isnt this getting you closer to the "cookie cutter way". Don I can respect that you want to be different for whatever the reason may be. The cookie cutters are only trying to help you not force you into anything if you don't like what we have to say then dont ask our opinion. There is no challenge if at every crossroad you ask for help, With all due respect GOOD LUCK

I'm not gonna argue with you Tony but Donnie has his own agenda and has to figure out this one himself. Sometimes it works better if you can figure it out with a little input from all of us but he has to decide that he wants that input and what it's worth. He doesn't want to throw parts at it like most of the guys on the board but really wants to know how to do it for himself. If the turbo and convertor aren't right he has to decide and go from there. I want to see him succede myself at what he's doing and input is a great thing, but if you have your heart set on one thing and everyone says it can't be done then why try?

 

[Alky V6]

Don,

If this the route that you are choosing to go to be different then do it!! don't ask people (Dusty) who by the way have already done it the "cookie cutter way" what they think. He told you last year your converter was wrong but you dismissed it, now you want his opinion. As far as ridculing you sorry you feel thats what I am doing. I told you that your converter was too tight and your turbo is too big. As of now you have changed the converter setup twice since I TOLD you so, but you want to do it "your way" what did you learn ? That dusty and i were right in telling you the converter is too tight after 300 hp worth of nitrous a flapper valve, spool assist in the trans, AMS boost controller, you have come to this realization. So now you are going to put in a looser converter with the idea that with the new converter you will be able to use less nitrous to spool isnt this getting you closer to the "cookie cutter way". Don I can respect that you want to be different for whatever the reason may be. The cookie cutters are only trying to help you not force you into anything if you don't like what we have to say then dont ask our opinion. There is no challenge if at every crossroad you ask for help, With all due respect GOOD LUCK

Tony. How often have I asked for your advice? I may have asked for advice from others that know how to respond without pompousness, but I don't remember asking for your advice directly. Not often, 'at every turn', anyway. You haven't read this thread all the way through have you? More times than not, I have offered up information that most would have kept to themselves. Not asking for advice. Just laying out my plans. If people want to challenge me on them, that's welcome. Often I learn from the interchange, and I think often they do to. For some reason, you want to get to the chase here. What's your hurry? Take it easy. Sit back and let me do my thing.

I get the feeling this must be very frustrating for you for some reason. Don't worry. I've done pretty well so far. When I switched to the big turbo, it has been a bit of a challenge, but I'll get 'er conquered in my own way, in my own time. And when I do, I would hope you would be there to congratulate me. Deal?

 

[Alky V6]

I probably should explain why I stuck with this stall speed for so long after changing to the larger turbo. It seems some are upset that I stuck with this low stall for so long. Here is why I waited to change the stall speed.
This is one of those inform posts. I'm not asking for advice. I hope that's clear. :wink:

I'm going to assume that many get their fuel table close enough for government work, and then let the O2 correction take care of the rest. I have never been able to get to a point where I can trust the O2 correction that much. I prefer to fine tune the fuel table and not use O2 correction.
What I have found is that the closer the fuel table gets to being dialed in, the more she runs like a swiss watch. I know some out there are thinking, come on, it's a race car, not a daily driver. Why are you so concerned about driveability? And I understand that. Sometimes I wish I wasn't so picky. But, unfortunately for me, that's how I am. I want my shhtuff dialed.
Dialing in a car that can be run without O2 correction is a lot of work. Particularly if a large cam is involved. The reversions and pulses that get set up from a large cam cause waves in the fuel map. Soon I'll post my latest fuel map revision so you can see what I mean. Of course, with the new stall speed, I'll be playing with it again, and I'm sure changing it in some way.

You cannot predict how these waves will look, where they will occur and the intensity of each wave. How high or how low they may dip. It's amazing really. I have the most fun working on the fuel table. As I've said before, it's like looking into the soul of your engine.
The time that I might spend on one particular section is amazing. I know it would drive you guys crazy.
I have no dyno, and the amount of time that I would require makes it unrealistic for me to pay for dyno time. I do what I can at the garage and do the rest at the track.

 

[Alky V6]

What the larger turbo allowed me to do was dial in some of the cells of the fuel map that the engine really didn't see that much when I was running the T76. The high rpm, low map region in particular. That's the same region used during burnouts. I was able to get a little more insight into that region when I switched to the larger turbo. The larger turbo wouldn't spool as much during the burnout and the engine now was seeing cells in the lower map/high rpm areas. I had the opportunity to learn something about the fuel table and I took it. And I took my time too.
Another region that was opened up to me was the stall speed on the nitrous region. That would be about 3700 rpm and 92 through 95 map. With the T76, as soon as the nitrous hit, bam, 16 psi in .4 seconds. That would start from just 2400 rpm. The rpm/map rise was such that the engine never saw 100 kPa at 3400 rpm. Well, when I switched to the larger turbo, I was seeing cells that were basically untouched with the T76. Again, I took my time to thoroughly explore this new region that was now open to me. Discovering the shape of a new wave in the fuel map.
And then, I just couldn't resist playing with the tuneup in that boost transition zone. Trying to find that secret tuneup that might break things wide open with this particular combination. I mean, how many people had real indepth experience with the type of combination I'm running?
I know it's easy now for people to jump on me and say, Hah. I told you so. But, only after they've seen what I went through to try to make it work with a combination that they really had absolutely no background with.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing. Isn't it.

 

[Alky V6]

So, can some of you now understand why I stuck with the low stall torque converter for so long? It has to do with the fuel table again.
I took the opportunity to explore certain cells in the fuel table that I knew I would not have the opportunity to explore after switching to a higher stall speed. Certain cells would not be obtainable with the new loading curve of the higher stall torque converter.

There is a method to my madness. :tongue:

 

[baadgn]

Tony. How often have I asked for your advice? I may have asked for advice from others that know how to respond without pompousness, but I don't remember asking for your advice directly. Not often, 'at every turn', anyway. You haven't read this thread all the way through have you? More times than not, I have offered up information that most would have kept to themselves. Not asking for advice. Just laying out my plans. If people want to challenge me on them, that's welcome. Often I learn from the interchange, and I think often they do to. For some reason, you want to get to the chase here. What's your hurry? Take it easy. Sit back and let me do my thing.

I get the feeling this must be very frustrating for you for some reason. Don't worry. I've done pretty well so far. When I switched to the big turbo, it has been a bit of a challenge, but I'll get 'er conquered in my own way, in my own time. And when I do, I would hope you would be there to congratulate me. Deal?

I will for sure congratulate you Don,when you do it your way. Like I mentioned before Don witout sounding "pompass" good luck.