Anybody weld reinforcements in their 109 block?

[Blazer406]

I saw a 109 block at Reynolds that had been modified with extra head studs on the intake side..... where someone had taken and built up with weld the area where the bolt holes would normally be on a set of 14 bolt heads.... then drilled the holes and tapped them and installed the extra studs....

I got to thinking.... if you could (prior to doing any machining) reinforce the block.... like make a web across the lifter valley using mild steel... and weld it up.......prior to machining.... I think you would have to get the block red hot in the area of the weld prior to welding it....and I'm sure with all the heat... the block would need complete machining... decked.... bored.....line honed...etc... to insure it was OK prior to building.

Sound crazy? or impossible?

 

[cruzn57]

Zimmerman does it

he offered it to me when I built my motor.
(but did I do it?)

 

[Blazer406]

I was thinking about 1/2" wide 2-1/2" -3-1/2" tall bars welded between #1 and #2.......... #3 and #4...... #5 and #6...... maybe with a bar connecting them all together.... from the front of the lifter valley to the rear of the lifter valley...

The main web area is another spot that needs to be built up.....

Might not be enough sugar for a dime....

 

[notacarlo]

Welding.....too many variables involved to consider the final product strong enough to do the job.

 

[Blazer406]

Welding.....too many variables involved to consider the final product strong enough to do the job.

Variables yes.... but IMHO.... it could only get stronger.....

There are stick rods just for welding cast iron.....I have welded it before.... got to get it nearly red hot prior to striking an arc....but it works rather well.

Like I said... it might be too much work there to justify it....

Would be neat to try this on a 4.1..... that most will say is only good for mid to high 10's....

Don't those blocks as well as the pre 109 3.8 blocks .... aren't they weak in the lifter valley?

 

[S2V6RACER]

My opinion is till you get to the low 9's you don't need anything but a girdle. If you are planning on pushing a 109 into S2 block territory you deserve the expense you will get. It's just retarded to spend this kind of money on a block when it's at it's limits when a heavy duty block is available.

 

[87GNSteve]

I havent seen too many cracked lifter valleys or blocks cracked in half.
The Extra head bolt mod would be a better focus rather than the valley reinforcment IMO.
You could reinforce the valley using a idea similiar to yours with drilling and tapping threads and bolting reinforcment in. Maybe even a small turnbuckle type adjuster.
Just have to seal some of the bolts against water seepage.

 

[SGRIM]

To get that braizen done to where it works properly and will really add extra strength is next to impossible because of the low nickel count in the blocks... As Ted said the COST certianly isn't worth it....

RJC has something for this already and something new being worked on I think:biggrin:

 

[Blazer406]

My opinion is till you get to the low 9's you don't need anything but a girdle. If you are planning on pushing a 109 into S2 block territory you deserve the expense you will get. It's just retarded to spend this kind of money on a block when it's at it's limits when a heavy duty block is available.

I've been accused of worse....

My thread was purely hypothetical anyway...... seeing the extra head bolts on a 109 block got me to thinking... anyway....

As far as the expense... if you were doing a serious buildup.... and were going to do most of those machining operations anyway... the additional cost... in the grand scheme... is not that much additional cost I wouldn't think....

 

[Blazer406]

I havent seen too many cracked lifter valleys or blocks cracked in half.
The Extra head bolt mod would be a better focus rather than the valley reinforcment IMO.
You could reinforce the valley using a idea similiar to yours with drilling and tapping threads and bolting reinforcment in. Maybe even a small turnbuckle type adjuster.
Just have to seal some of the bolts against water seepage.

We have an '85 3.8 block that was cracked at one point all the way across the edge of the cylinders.... about 1-2" up from the lifter valley floor... across one bank..... then was welded.... has held up so far...

Not sure what strength difference there is between a '85 3.8 block... and an '84 4.1 block....

Just thinking....

 

[SGRIM]

We have tried it, several others have tried it. Money was NO object with me either. We tried HARD... It just would not work "properly."

 

[Blazer406]

To get that braizen done to where it works properly and will really add extra strength is next to impossible because of the low nickel count in the blocks... As Ted said the COST certianly isn't worth it....

RJC has something for this already and something new being worked on I think:biggrin:

I was thinking of stick rod welding....with the proper rods..... not braizen....

I would think stress relieving the block would be a good idea after welding all this up..... as well...

 

[S2V6RACER]

You will have more $$ in the long run from failures then if you start with a good heavy duty block. TA, Champion iron block?

 

[Nick Micale]

You will have more $$ in the long run from failures then if you start with a good heavy duty block. TA, Champion iron block?

Ted has said twice in this thread, it is not worth the $$$$ and effort to build a 109 block with extra bolts, cap, girdle, clamps, etc. to run low 9's as you WILL break the block.

This is being done because TSM requires a 109 block.

The 109 blocks that we have seen trashed, are not because of a week lifter valley. Most common break is in the main webs which are VERY thin. Cylinder walls are probably the no. 2 weak spot. Even mid-high 9 sec 109 blocks have been victims of broken blocks.

A 109 block prepped and machined with all the extra hardware will cost much more than a good, used stage block, and almost as much as an alum block.

 

[bison]

The blocks fail between the main and cam journals. I doubt any reinforcement above that point will offer any significant improvement in strength.

 

[Blazer406]

The blocks fail between the main and cam journals. I doubt any reinforcement above that point will offer any significant improvement in strength.

This is probably generally true..... however... I do have an early block that had cracked all the way across the cylinders.... about 2" above the lifter valley floor........ albeit possibly attributed to it being an early block.... that is known to be less strong.

 

[Blazer406]

........The 109 blocks that we have seen trashed, are not because of a week lifter valley. Most common break is in the main webs which are VERY thin. Cylinder walls are probably the no. 2 weak spot. Even mid-high 9 sec 109 blocks have been victims of broken blocks.

A 109 block prepped and machined with all the extra hardware will cost much more than a good, used stage block, and almost as much as an alum block.

It is obvious to me when looking at the crank area of a 109... there is practically no meat around the main web area..... and this is probably where I would suspect the most benefit could be obtained by building this area up... and machining it flat...then modify it possibly for 4 bolt caps.....

an easy 2nd would be the necessary mods to get the extra head bolt holes into the block....

Yes I agree this would not be cheap.

My intention for the thread as a whole... was to generate some good discussion about what has been done.... what can be done..... and what is feasable to do...... and so far.... this has generated some extremely good discussion IMHO..... as I couldn't find hardly any threads addressing this subject..... and I do have a genuine intrest.

 

[V6RACER]

Brian, I know people try all these "tricks" and they may or may not work. I can tell you from my experience and the short block I had been using for the last two years has no extra welding and no extra bolts.. I'm sure there are people who don't believe me, but they can just take a look at it and see. You've seen what my car did.

Only thing I have is a good tune and a GREAT machinist!

 

[SGRIM]

DLS! Dan makes this so plain to understand! I will not attempt to quote him, maybe he will post...

 

[bison]

Just try to find the heaviest block you can. Ive weighed several and have seen differences up to 4 lbs. TSM is not a cheap class anyway and they should allow the use of a different block. As for anyone else there is no point in even trying to strengthen the block. It will be trial and error and expensive as hell. Its cheaper to start with a known strong block.