Are the HA's fading into oblivion?

[turbonut85]

at least with you and keith being able to point me in the right direction we can get this beast of mine going fast with little issues.

yep....we'll point you in the right direction...straight to the beer fridge!

 

[Jerryl]

The “HA vs IC” debates have never been about “what someone wants to do with THEIR car”, “Investment value”, or whatever else you may think it is.

It has been about those who want to run mid-high 12’s next week with a HA car, and think they need to convert to the IC’d set-up to accomplish this. Even with an IC’d set-up, 12’s won’t fall in your lap since some of the basics are still required. EVERYONE here will agree and tell you that if you want to run low 10’s with YOUR HA car, it would be much cheaper and relatively easier to convert to an IC’d set-up.

This “HA Tech” section, is IMO about providing TECHNICAL INFO to enthusiasts with HA set-ups specifically, not IC’d set-ups. The general section typically addresses IC set-up related issues. (Yes, there are some differences in the tech to be aware about)

Two of the BIGGEST HA obstacles have been solved; Turbo’s and DP.
There is one left; PS header (Which I believe is in the works.)
If everyone had converted to the IC’d set-up, the HA turbo and DP would not be available today.

Note that the current limit of a 3.8 HA set-up is looow 10’s on E-85 (Turbo6X2). VERY few will ever achieve this, even with the nastiests IC’d set-up.

Do as YOU please with YOUR car, and have fun! :tongue:

 

[boostmaster]

The “HA vs IC” debates have never been about “what someone wants to do with THEIR car”, “Investment value”, or whatever else you may think it is.

It has been about those who want to run mid-high 12’s next week with a HA car, and think they need to convert to the IC’d set-up to accomplish this. Even with an IC’d set-up, 12’s won’t fall in your lap since some of the basics are still required. EVERYONE here will agree and tell you that if you want to run low 10’s with YOUR HA car, it would be much cheaper and relatively easier to convert to an IC’d set-up.

This “HA Tech” section, is IMO about providing TECHNICAL INFO to enthusiasts with HA set-ups specifically, not IC’d set-ups. The general section typically addresses IC set-up related issues. (Yes, there are some differences in the tech to be aware about)

Two of the BIGGEST HA obstacles have been solved; Turbo’s and DP.
There is one left; PS header (Which I believe is in the works.)
If everyone had converted to the IC’d set-up, the HA turbo and DP would not be available today.

Note that the current limit of a 3.8 HA set-up is looow 10’s on E-85 (Turbo6X2). VERY few will ever achieve this, even with the nastiests IC’d set-up.

Do as YOU please with YOUR car, and have fun! :tongue:

I could'nt have said it better myself. The truth of the matter is out of all the conversion set ups that have been done and reported on this board very few of them have ever made it into the 10's. Sure they all come back to this forum and proclaim how much faster and seat of the pants feel they've gotten from converting but I'd say less than 20% of them run the numbers. And that's because an experienced tuner or R&D person will make any set up run it's goal within the limitations of the design no matter what that design is.

So you wanna take the easy way out, go ahead but there are some of us here that really like a challenge to push the limit of what we were given. The fact of the matter is and this can't be overstated the intercooled set up is much more flexible when it comes to tuning but 10's or even 11's still haven't fallen in everyones lap once they convert. Because even after you do all that you have to be able to tune the set up. And the fact of the matter is........if you can't tune a Hot Air you still can't tune the intercooled set up either......PERIOD!!!! But intercooled will be faster on a bad tune only because of the denser air it receives.

 

[Jerryl]

. . . an experienced tuner or R&D person will make any set up run it's goal within the limitations of the design no matter what that design is.

So you wanna take the easy way out, go ahead ............. Because even after you do all that you have to be able to tune the set up. And the fact of the matter is........if you can't tune a Hot Air you still can't tune the intercooled set up either......PERIOD!!!! .........

I would like to confirm my agreement with this except one thing ;
I don't think converting is "easier" . . . . I get a kick out of some of the posts that proclaim to want to convert . . . followed by . . . . "What does the XXX do, or, How do you adjust the XXX?"

AGAIN, not knocking anyone, we all started somehwere. So read on. . . . if you can't adjust the XXXX, or understand what the XXXX does, you are probably not ready for a LC2 conversion . . . . (Flame suit on :biggrin

And Boostmaster, you are 100% correct!!! HA's don't run worth a crap on a 1/2 @$$ tune since the air heats up, and you need to pull fuel, lots of it . . . . and, the TT 6.0 and/or SD chip combined with PL has made it much easier to maintain target AFR with a stock ECM.

Rock on my friend!

 

[kaj]

i can't speak for others, but i'm not adding an intercooler to my car to run any specific times or make any specific amount of power. my reasoning is mostly for safety. i'll be doing it to keep my charge temps down. detonation is our enemy, and anything i can do to lessen the chance of it happening is good in my book.
now, i know there are options such as alcohol, and others... but with an intercooler, it's installed and done. no refilling, systems to fail, etc. an intercooler may not be as effective as liquid cooling, but it will help a bit.
not only all that, but by having a blow-through system instead of pull-through, that gives me the opportunity to run some vacuum lines the way i'd like. but that's another subject.
anyway, i'm not looking to convert to 86/87 now that i know how to modify my HA setup to add an intercooler. i don't think it's necessary right now, though i plan to in the future due to aftermarket support. i can throw a rock and find some nice, aftermarket parts for an 86/87 setup.
anyway, i'm hoping to add a bit of safety to my car and... well, if i happen to be able to run a few more PSI, so be it.

my car isn't even gonna be a t-top any more.. i'm changing that too. so i guess my car isn't an original HA car at all, any more. so.. i can do as i please without pissing off the hard-core guys?

 

[Jerryl]

i can't speak for others, but i'm not adding an intercooler to my car to run any specific times or make any specific amount of power. my reasoning is mostly for safety. i'll be doing it to keep my charge temps down. detonation is our enemy, and anything i can do to lessen the chance of it happening is good in my book. . . . . .

Kaj,
No one will disagree with your statement.
Just be sure maintain the fuel system, just like you would need with an alky system. Charged engines are finicky and want ALL systems working properly.
Good luck!

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Wow, interesting thread, just for the record I've been driving turbo Buick since my new 79 sport coupe back when I was a senior in high school. As soon as the warranty was up I did some mods to it, adjustable waste-gate by moding the factory, mack truck air filter, winters transmissions shift kit (350 hydro), reworked the Rochester 4-barrel linkage so the secondary would open vertical, re-jetted the secondary richer for the increased flow, water injection, boost gage, factory SS duals from there performance division, bleeder valve to adjust the boost from the driver's seat. Anyway after all that I could light that peg leg up.... before the modifications, noway.
Then in 84 I sold this car to my buddy that I would race and beat regularly, he had a 73 firebird with a 350 motor/automatic tranny, after I bought my last new car(to date), the 84 GN.
Modded the 84 GN when the warranty was up also, this time I went the Kenny-Bell route. Cam, cold air intake, valve springs, gutted cat, hooker duals. And it ran ok, did the marriage thing, had kids, B*tch wigged out after the 3rd son was born, long messy divorce....
The day after we settled the divorce, called Jack Cotton to have him take a look at the Buick, I wasn't satisfied with the performance anymore and wanted him to check it out. Turns out that #3 cylinder was dead, cam was wiped, I had a choice, fix the cam or let him convert the car. There was a donor car there that was a rust bucket, long story short I drove home in a rental car, couple of weeks later I picked up the Buick, best money I ever spent on the car IMHO. The car is very different now, best interior was now coupled up with the IC motor/tranny..... since then pulled the motor and tranny after I built the motor in my signature.
I never plan on selling the car(each baby came home from the hospital in it), and would I convert it again? In a heart beat, the performance level makes it feel like a different/new car. Sorry for the long rant..

Chuck

 

[Jerryl]

. . . . B*tch wigged out after the 3rd son was born . . . .

Chuck,
Don't mean to laugh but can't help myself.

 

[turbonut85]

Yawn............I'm getting real tired of the "i wanna convert for this reason", or the "i'm so glad I converted" or "I'm gonna convert cause I think it's easier".....I take that back.....I guess I'm just tired of reading these posts IN THE HOT AIR SECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have both types of cars, so I know the pros/cons and differences between the two, for sure. I don't consider myself a "purist" by any means and I couldn't care less what ANYONE thinks about what I do to my car. But, it sure would be nice to have a tech section on this board that has subject matters that pretain to the title of the section.....I guess what I'm saying is this: If you want to convert, go for it, enjoy what you do, and I will help in any way that I can....just don't ask these questions and look for tech advise in the HOT AIR SECTION.

OK, I will stop ranting.....and just to be clear: I'm not directing this statement at any person or persons directly......just stating my opinion.

 

[boostmaster]

Yawn............I'm getting real tired of the "i wanna convert for this reason", or the "i'm so glad I converted" or "I'm gonna convert cause I think it's easier".....I take that back.....I guess I'm just tired of reading these posts IN THE HOT AIR SECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have both types of cars, so I know the pros/cons and differences between the two, for sure. I don't consider myself a "purist" by any means and I couldn't care less what ANYONE thinks about what I do to my car. But, it sure would be nice to have a tech section on this board that has subject matters that pretain to the title of the section.....I guess what I'm saying is this: If you want to convert, go for it, enjoy what you do, and I will help in any way that I can....just don't ask these questions and look for tech advise in the HOT AIR SECTION.

OK, I will stop ranting.....and just to be clear: I'm not directing this statement at any person or persons directly......just stating my opinion.

Agreed!!!

 

[boostmaster]

Turns out that #3 cylinder was dead, cam was wiped, I had a choice, fix the cam or let him convert the car. There was a donor car there that was a rust bucket, long story short I drove home in a rental car, couple of weeks later I picked up the Buick, best money I ever spent on the car IMHO. The car is very different now, best interior was now coupled up with the IC motor/tranny..... since then pulled the motor and tranny after I built the motor in my signature.
I never plan on selling the car(each baby came home from the hospital in it), and would I convert it again? In a heart beat, the performance level makes it feel like a different/new car. Sorry for the long rant..

Chuck

So when you really think about it was the lack of performance because of the design or because as we have stated time and time again.....no amount of mods or conversion can make up for a poorly running car. If I were going from a car with a dead cylinder to a healthy drive train I'd say it was the greatest thing since sliced bread also.

Secondly, I see instant 10's did'nt fall in your lap either.

 

[MikeStarner]

I agree 100%

 

[jdpolzin]

I would like to see more tech and combo information as these cars start to get faster and faster. It seems a lot of information is kept from fellow hot air owners within this section. I think the Turbo Farm West Crew is going to have a couple heavy hitters in the HA category in the next year or so. Most of this information is due to a lot of plannig and late night conversations and I know the owners of these cars would have no problem sharing information so we can help fellow members get faster and faster!

In the IC category, it's really no secret as to how to become fast. There is a lot of this info that can be transfered into the HA category but lets get some combos and numbers and start to compare apples to apples here in the HA category.

You never know, there may just start to be a few more race classes focused on soley HA cars in the future!

 

[kaj]

Kaj,
No one will disagree with your statement.
Just be sure maintain the fuel system, just like you would need with an alky system. Charged engines are finicky and want ALL systems working properly.
Good luck!

Definitely. Turbo cars are all we build. I'm very familiar with the basics

Chuck,
Don't mean to laugh but can't help myself.

Me too. Lol been there. Done that!

 

[UncleDave]

Having done the dastardly deed, I must say that converting is NOT easier, nor is it any less expensive. I believe I could have been just as fast if not faster by spending the same ungodly amount of money and time on improving the HA. The only way it's easier is if you have someone do it for you, and that certainly would not be cheaper. Take it from someone who was cocky and thought they had it all figured out.

I dislike taking the easy way out, so I'm converting back to HA, LOL But my goals may be different than most. I don't talk of running 10's or 11's or 12's because I never intend to race. If I can even get by without alky so much the better, but I doubt it (because waiting for E85 to show up in my state is like waiting to win the lottery, LOL). If I had another project car, sure, but this is my cruiser. Just a little fun on the street is all, I'd never risk blowing it up on a track. So why bother building the 4.1 and adding all the goodies if I don't intend to race? Just because I can. And there's something tres cool about being different and going against conventional wisdom.

 

[boostmaster]

I would like to see more tech and combo information as these cars start to get faster and faster. It seems a lot of information is kept from fellow hot air owners within this section.

I don't think that is true at all. The real problem is the lack of competant mechanics that are "WILLING" to work on these cars in the first place. I know several guys with fast intercooled cars in my area that just won't work on our cars. There first option is to convert period. You don't know how many times that I have been told to give up on my car until I started running fast myself. As far as keeping secrets, there have been several members that have posted combo's and such about their set up but very few of us actually race our cars or don't disclose our times. Take Eric Singer and Turbo6X2 for instance they have basically given a step by step tutorial on their build. But even after all that members want every single detail down to what size bolt you used on your battery cable and when they say hey the info is out there then suddenly we're witholding information. Nobody wants to put in the time.

In the IC category, it's really no secret as to how to become fast. There is a lot of this info that can be transfered into the HA category but lets get some combos and numbers and start to compare apples to apples here in the HA category.

And that's what everyone has said all along, there is no magic bullet. Everything that applies to the intercooled set up applies to our cars also. Sure the fueling requirements may be a little different but everything else is the same. Period. Yet people still want you to spell out every single detail when everything is just a search away. But I honestly believe most of that comes from all the myths that have been disbursed about the Hot Air car.

You never know, there may just start to be a few more race classes focused on soley HA cars in the future!

I don't think so.... too many converted and too many not interested. Every year for the past 10 years I have been the only Hot Air at the local event here and all the big boys come down to play. I've met both Lee Thompson and John Bruce here.....super nice guys by the way. If there are more Hot Airs there they must be scared to run because mine has been the only one going down the track every time. I used to be the slowest, but not anymore. I used to be laughed at, but not anymore. My car used to be the ugliest.......well it's still the ugliest (both of them)!!!

 

[boostmaster]

I dislike taking the easy way out, so I'm converting back to HA, LOL But my goals may be different than most. I don't talk of running 10's or 11's or 12's because I never intend to race. If I can even get by without alky so much the better, but I doubt it (because waiting for E85 to show up in my state is like waiting to win the lottery, LOL). If I had another project car, sure, but this is my cruiser. Just a little fun on the street is all, I'd never risk blowing it up on a track. So why bother building the 4.1 and adding all the goodies if I don't intend to race? Just because I can. And there's something tres cool about being different and going against conventional wisdom.

And the best thing about it Dave is you don't have to worry about blowing it up. Ported heads make all the difference. I run mid 12's all day on straight pump gas on about 15-16 PSI. I would go out on a limb and say if I pushed it to the edge I could run bottom 12's on straight pump but I don't want to find that limit that bad. I've blown up far more than my share of pistons that I care to talk about.

 

[MikeStarner]

I'll tell you what I find that keeps me going with HA over I/C so far, is the challenge. I worked on v8 engines all the time in my own vehicles, but this car puts all my ASE certifications to the test.

 

[boostedyards86]

i'm only converting due to money. for me it is cheaper to piss off purists and go turbo lsx. haha but if i do enjoy the challenge of staying hot air. Eventually when time and money allows it I will probably come back to the hot air thing and see what I can do. Only then I will run a fast system instead of a adjustable chip. I just feel there are too many variables with a hot air car. But we shall see. Maybe I will find another stock shortblock before I get to involved with this v8 swap.

 

[charlief1]

I'll tell you what I find that keeps me going with HA over I/C so far, is the challenge. I worked on v8 engines all the time in my own vehicles, but this car puts all my ASE certifications to the test.

Wanna trade Mike? Try running the original HA C/T set up and see hard the ASE certs are stressed.:biggrin: