Cam swap gains ?

[BOP4ever]

I am pulling the engine to replace a blown head gaskets so I thought I would make some mods to increase performance. I already posted about porting the heads and this in general but I wanted to make a seperate post on cams specifically.

Compared to the Stock cam ( anyone know the specs ?)

Is there a real value to get the car in the low low 11's without crazy boost in a street tune by changing cams if so what would work best for my... 2800 stall te44, bigger intercooler, and the chipa and alcohol in my signature...


Id like to get there on 23 or less PSI...if I can...
Maintain stock like manners...

Trying to learn guys sorry if my questions are repetative or dumb.


Thanks

 

[Nick Micale]

.....Is there a real value to get the car in the low low 11's without crazy boost in a street tune by changing cams if so what would work ...

If a 1987 GN with an un-opened stock block can run into the 10's using a TE-61 and a few other bolt-ons, why would you want to change your cam?

 

[BOP4ever]

I don't doubt someone did it ... But reading on here it seems most are like me and struggle to get in the 12s with stock parts...
I wish I had the time to figure out how to tune my car that well. Or knew someone to show me. So I figure I'll need dome help to get mine in the 11s is all.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

I don't doubt someone did it ... But reading on here it seems most are like me and struggle to get in the 12s with stock parts...
I wish I had the time to figure out how to tune my car that well. Or knew someone to show me. So I figure I'll need dome help to get mine in the 11s is all.

i am with you 100000000000000000%

on an 180K mile long block
i went from 12.68 to 12.10 on a converter change from Stock D5 to 9.5 3200 LU, built trans and 3.42 gears
then
from 12.10 to 11.74
206/206 Roller cam
and very lightly massaged heads
and a (bad) safe tune.

just do a lot of research before buying anything and ask a lot of questions once they get tired of telling you that you don't need anything the'll give you good advice.

 

[87chrisss]

How did you blow the HG?..do you have a scanmaster? or a knock gauge? what was your Fuel pressure? did the alky fail? was your gas tank close to empty. lots of little things could ruin a day...if i were going to do a head job i would do both heads, and upgrade to some arp's..is it a high mileage motor?

 

[bison]

I am pulling the engine to replace a blown head gaskets so I thought I would make some mods to increase performance. I already posted about porting the heads and this in general but I wanted to make a seperate post on cams specifically.

Compared to the Stock cam ( anyone know the specs ?)

Is there a real value to get the car in the low low 11's without crazy boost in a street tune by changing cams if so what would work best for my... 2800 stall te44, bigger intercooler, and the chipa and alcohol in my signature...


Id like to get there on 23 or less PSI...if I can...
Maintain stock like manners...

Trying to learn guys sorry if my questions are repetative or dumb.


Thanks

There is no easy way you will run low 11's with those parts @23psi. A cam would help a little if you had good heads and the converter and turbo were working with it and it had a good tune. Btw boost doesnt break engines.

 

[Nick Micale]

.....I wish I had the time to figure out how to tune my car that well. Or knew someone to show me. So I figure I'll need some help to get mine in the 11s is all.

Back in the "Dark ages", which mean before the internet to you youngsters, we did it by sharing our experiences and knowledge by phone, newsletters, meetings, events and actually talking with people in English, not the text language. :biggrin:

Many of us that have started with a stock GN that would be fortunate enough to run a high 14 sec. 1/4 mile have progressed through faster builds into 8 and 9 sec. cars.

In the course of doing this, we made many mistakes, some of which many new guys continue to do. Each vendor developed his own "recipe" for various levels of performance, and most were very similar.

Now we have "where can I buy the cheapest...", or "I bought this part and it is great", but the concept of a co-ordinated selection of the proper parts to achieve a performance goal is no longer relevant?

We found it was necessary to have the proper combination of parts when building a GN for a given and known level of performance AND reliability.

Most of the original turbo Buick vendors sold parts, worked on the cars and had their own race car that expanded their experience and knowledge in helping their customers.

I do know times have changed, and "instant gratification" is rampant when some research and information gathering may take too long to be sure $$$ are spent properly for the desired results.

This may be seen as verbal "rambling" by an old fart, but this is not directed at anyone personally, but a general trend on this board and in our society.

 

[m233roller]

BOY!! You hit the nail on the head there my friend.

 

[Grumpy]

This may be seen as verbal "rambling" by an old fart, but this is not directed at anyone personally, but a general trend on this board and in our society.

X3.. I still have local guys that buy a LOT of parts that don't work as a combo. I just sit back now and watch. I am easily amused at my young age :biggrin:

 

[BOP4ever]

I am trying to do everything that makes sense to do that I can afford while the engine is out of the car is all… I am not saying it can’t be done with the stock long block with expert tuning. The HG probably blew from years of detonation I think. I got the car with 60k miles and it was running 20 psi without alky… I backed the boost down to 14 when I got it at the recommendation of people here. I got a turbo-link package and found car would pull 6 to 8 at anything over about 16 with the JC 93 Chip that was in it at the time.

I installed a SMC alcohol system on the car that I got from a new Buick friend here in AR and could run about 18-19 without knock…. I changed the injectors to 42’s and put a alcohol chip in it from TT…tuned it to 20-21 zero knock…. Then there was the Alky pump failure…. Made a pass not staring at the computer but checked the trend it it hit 26 degrees …!!! Many said I was lucky not to have blown it then …maybe it partially did…

Pulled and changed plugs replaced pump and the car ran ok that was last year… I did not do much with it other than daily drive it a few WOT test runs with the same tune that was producing zero knock before… When it blew it was of course hot…. Looking back my tuning was done on a cold day too… so maybe there was some knock.. I did not have the computer on it so my guess is there was a little knock and the gasket gave up and blew…

I am looking at either a knock gauge or buzzer this go around. I am trying avoid the Scan Master due to cost and having the turbo link if I can just get some form of reliable knock detection for daily driving.

All I am trying to figure out is does it make sense to upgrade the cam and make my goals easier and maybe take some stress off the engine… I know that boost in itself does not kill an engine, but if I can get the air volume in the cylinder with less pressure I reduce latent heat and have a denser air/fuel mix and less potential detonation and greater power.
So ported heads and a better cam seem to make sense.. I know from my years of NA V8 this is key… increase VE and you will get more power however more cam than the rest of the combo can handle is backing up… I figure it is similar here in the boost world…

I don’t know how to learn other than to ask these questions and I don’t have any guru’s here local to ask or take the car to so these boards are all I have to go to for information.
Instant gratification no that’s not me, but I don’t like doing things later when it’s harder when I have it torn down on the stand now though so for my goals of mid to low 11’s does a cam upgrade make sense or is it just a waste of money.

Plans as I think right now…
Head Gaskets… either Felpro or Victor R.
Heads … Home ported from instructions I find here and other boards
Intake … port matched to heads
Exhaust… port elbow
Cam ….. ????? 206 hyd roller ?, or Stock? Or 206 flat tappet ?
Knock Gauge or buzzer…
New timing set
Drop pan and clean oil pick up

Id would really appreciate one of you guys that has been there and done it to lead me through building the car correctly to live and perform well. Thanks

 

[bison]

If youre worried about the cost of a device like a scanmaster you should leave the car close to stock till you have some $ to burn. If not your car will be sitting broken more than it runs.

 

[charlief1]

Back in the "Dark ages", which mean before the internet to you youngsters, we did it by sharing our experiences and knowledge by phone, newsletters, meetings, events and actually talking with people in English, not the text language. :biggrin:

Now we have "where can I buy the cheapest...", or "I bought this part and it is great", but the concept of a co-ordinated selection of the proper parts to achieve a performance goal is no longer relevant?

I do know times have changed, and "instant gratification" is rampant when some research and information gathering may take too long to be sure $$$ are spent properly for the desired results.

This may be seen as verbal "rambling" by an old fart, but this is not directed at anyone personally, but a general trend on this board and in our society.

You know, this would make a great quote if it was this long Nick.:biggrin:

Sad to say but this is the norm now. I'm working on an archaic draw through system that no ones really messed with in over 20 years. I've had to do a lot of reading and research to figure out how to make it work and still haven't gotten it together yet. Nick has made a very good point though. You see all those go fast goodies and people just try and stick them on and expect perfection right away. It doesn't work that way except in the magazines or on TV.:biggrin:

Ask questions and do a lot of reading so you have a better idea of how to make everything work together. Yes, you can put a cam in and go or maybe a different turbo but you won't get the most out of either unless you know whether they will work together with the rest of the system or not.

Also, following someone else's advice with out some sort of knowlege base or knowing that they really have done it is about as dangerous as walking into a rattle snake pit after watching someone else do it. You may make it out or you may not.:smile:

 

[Pronto]

If youre worried about the cost of a device like a scanmaster you should leave the car close to stock till you have some $ to burn. If not your car will be sitting broken more than it runs.

I'll go one step farther. If you don't have the money for a Scanmaster then sell your car. Your going to put in the cost of a Scanmaster right there with replacing the head gaskets. Simple tool and right in your face on the dash. You'll never forget to turn it on either. No need for a cam unless it's failing. A Dut neck intercooler, ported elbow and a good tune should be low 12s for you.

 

[BOP4ever]

Ok I hear ya on the scan master...

I was just thinking a knock gauge or buzzer would serve the same purpose after the car is tuned to be safe with the turbo link stuff and driven...
like that untill something was messed with then the T-link would be needed again to make sure its ok... I was actually considering a knock device and maybe put the rest toward a wide band O2 system rather than 275.00 for a redundant device to the T-link stuff for tuning... Am I missing something still on the Scan master deal.... I have T-link and plan to get a knock alert is there a flaw in that plan ??

 

[Pronto]

Having a laptop hooked up when ever you run the car is inconvienent. Unless you are recording a run it's not nessasary. You can also toggle through the ScanMaster to read many useful things like temp, O2s, rpm, and knock. The knock buzzer is useful when you are racing since you might not have time to watch the Scanmaster and will hear the buzzer. I just don't like flying blind. It's redunant but what if you laptop takes a dump or runs out of battery? You can also use the Scanmaster to change the settings in a TT chip. Oh, Turbolink has been known to cause some strange issues with the hook up ribbon too. I prefer Powerlogger with a Scanmaster.

 

[usetaboost]

Sell the turbolink and get a scanmaster. You'll get tired of pissing around with a laptop in the car. You can log runs on the cheap with winaldl and excel or open office

 

[BOP4ever]

Thanks for the input.
I got the scanmaster and buzzer installed and it is nice having the info all the time.
No issues with t-link so far

 

[Mike Licht]

Back in the "Dark ages", which mean before the internet to you youngsters, we did it by sharing our experiences and knowledge by phone, newsletters, meetings, events and actually talking with people in English, not the text language. :biggrin:

Many of us that have started with a stock GN that would be fortunate enough to run a high 14 sec. 1/4 mile have progressed through faster builds into 8 and 9 sec. cars.

In the course of doing this, we made many mistakes, some of which many new guys continue to do. Each vendor developed his own "recipe" for various levels of performance, and most were very similar.

Now we have "where can I buy the cheapest...", or "I bought this part and it is great", but the concept of a co-ordinated selection of the proper parts to achieve a performance goal is no longer relevant?

We found it was necessary to have the proper combination of parts when building a GN for a given and known level of performance AND reliability.

Most of the original turbo Buick vendors sold parts, worked on the cars and had their own race car that expanded their experience and knowledge in helping their customers.

I do know times have changed, and "instant gratification" is rampant when some research and information gathering may take too long to be sure $$$ are spent properly for the desired results.

This may be seen as verbal "rambling" by an old fart, but this is not directed at anyone personally, but a general trend on this board and in our society.

yep, I miss those days Nick
Mike

 

[bose]

I am pulling the engine to replace a blown head gaskets so I thought I would make some mods to increase performance. I already posted about porting the heads and this in general but I wanted to make a seperate post on cams specifically.

Compared to the Stock cam ( anyone know the specs ?)

Is there a real value to get the car in the low low 11's without crazy boost in a street tune by changing cams if so what would work best for my... 2800 stall te44, bigger intercooler, and the chipa and alcohol in my signature...


Id like to get there on 23 or less PSI...if I can...
Maintain stock like manners...

Trying to learn guys sorry if my questions are repetative or dumb.


Thanks

I have owned my GN for 12 years. When I bought the car it was 100% stock. The only thing I did before I went to the track was install a Walbro fuel pump and buy turbolink. I then went to the track multiple times and got the car to run what it was supposed to stock. My next upgrade was the ATR stainless 2 1/2 inch exhaust with a cat test pipe. This upgrade was a necessity as my original exhaust was rusty. I again took it to the track and was slightly faster but this was still the original chip etc. My next upgrade was an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, Joe Lubrant street chip, and a knock sensor. I was now mixing Xylene with premium fuel and running 19 pounds of boost. I again went to the track and traction was a problem. My 60 foot times were terrible and I was only running high 13's. I then installed a drive shaft loop (safety reasons), poly drivers side motor mount, and bought a set of Nitto drag radials, 275/50/15. My next time out I instantly went 13.1 and I was still learning how much boost I could leave the line with. The second run I ran a 13.0. The track was crowded plus an oil down (this was a test & tune night) so my third run would be my last. It felt like I was on a good run but at 3/4 track I heard a beep from the knock detector and left off. Turbolink later showed I could have stayed in it but I was safe and did not break anything. Well I eventually ran into the 12's with this combo on a very safe tune. My point is twofold; first if you change too many things at one time and go slower what do you blame it on and second it takes time to safely (no engine damage) to go fast. My next upgrades were a 3 inch downpipe, a TA49, and Ford Bluetops along with a Testa 98 octane chip. I was now running 110 octane and premium mixed 50/50. I went to the track and thought I would rip off an 11 second pass. Guess what, 13 flat was all I could do. Part of my problem was I was still only running 19 psi and at this point I did not see any gain. So I carefully tuned and tuned and I eventually broke into the 11's. Now I tune for easy 12.3s to 12.5s with the knowledge I can turn it up and go faster if I want to. This process was not a couple of weeks but went from the first summer I owned the car to the second summer I owned the car so it took some time. I also like to drive my car on the street. If I want to go faster than this I think I will buy another GN and even though keep it street legal I will realize that it will be much more likely to start breaking parts. You already blew a head gasket and I am only saying this so you understand you need to tune the car to run reliably. It is so much more fun to be in the seat rather than under the hood.This is my story and my viewpoint. Bruce

 

[hensleyt]

I had my 3.8 apart after a leak down and I had two low cylinders.I went with a roller just for the reliability factor.
I would have left the stock cam had I not needed to ring it and if I would have driven it a little longer the rings might have reseated
The 206/210 from FT is quiet, car is tame,BUT .500+ lift is a pain, lot of work to the heads.
I'm sure the roller will help VE.I'm in the high 11s @ 25 psi.
usetaboost how do you log runs without a laptop?(sorry about the hijack)