cam vs compressor surge

[we4Mateo]

I've posted a few different threads about getting rid of part throttle compressor surge on my unopened 109 with a TE44 and have not gotten very far. My question now is though, will putting a new 206/206 cam in it with fresh valve spring help my 7-10psi compressor surge at all?

Any real world help is appreciated. Right now the TE44 clearly outflows my motor at part throttle.

 

[Dino1]

I put a Tornado in front of the turbo inlet bell on my TA49 to stop the surge and it worked.

 

[TR Custom Parts]

Did the same thing when I had a 49 on my car. It worked. Now running a 6262 and our front mount IC and no part throttle surge.

 

[bison]

1 solution i see. Switch turbos. If your car is traping under 110mph in the quarter go back to the stock turbo. Another partial solution would be to go to a .85 Precision housing. The surge doesnt hurt anything. Cam changes will do about nothing.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Are you still using the factory boost control solenoid? If so, try temporarily capping the outlet nipple on the solenoid to see if the surge stops (your WOT boost will be lower). If that helps, we can turn off the solenoid in the chip below a certain TPS to help.

 

[we4Mateo]

I'm running a Tornado right @ the end of the turbo and that helped greatly but the surge is not completely gone. I'm using an RJC boost controller so that's not it. Even with alky off and low boost, 15psi or lower, it still surges between 7-10 psi @ part throttle. WOT no matter what boost level, up to 25psi that I run, and no problems. I'm thinking about just getting an S cover 6262 and be done, but my car is such a recipe car, I can't believe that I can't make it work as is. I'm trapping well over 110 yet too so stock turbo is not going back on but now that I can lock my converter, my 44 will easily get me kicked off the track, so I don't want a new turbo just to eliminate the surge; especially on a simple combo like mine. I think my particular 44 just outflows my motor @ part throttle; I hoped the cam would help the car "eat" more. My stock MAF was so restrictive, it helped with surge, but that's not going back on either to fix this issue. The surge is keeping my car from being a perfect street car though.

 

[bison]

I'm running a Tornado right @ the end of the turbo and that helped greatly but the surge is not completely gone. I'm using an RJC boost controller so that's not it. Even with alky off and low boost, 15psi or lower, it still surges between 7-10 psi @ part throttle. WOT no matter what boost level, up to 25psi that I run, and no problems. I'm thinking about just getting an S cover 6262 and be done, but my car is such a recipe car, I can't believe that I can't make it work as is. I'm trapping well over 110 yet too so stock turbo is not going back on but now that I can lock my converter, my 44 will easily get me kicked off the track, so I don't want a new turbo just to eliminate the surge; especially on a simple combo like mine. I think my particular 44 just outflows my motor @ part throttle; I hoped the cam would help the car "eat" more. My stock MAF was so restrictive, it helped with surge, but that's not going back on either to fix this issue. The surge is keeping my car from being a perfect street car though.

You could probably have Precision make it into a ported S cover if you wanted or go to a 5857 S ported which would be its replacement. Ported covers will hurt the efficiency of the turbo if its run for all its worth. The surge is caused by the throttle angle and not the boost. The POS tornado is doing just what the factory MAF was doing. Causing an inlet restriction in the inlet to delay the turbine speed.

 

[Mike Licht]

A big throttle body will help with surge

 

[we4Mateo]

A big throttle body will help with surge

I was thinking that but I don't want to just start throwing parts at it. I need the valvesprings and I want a cam anyway, so I'm starting there. Thanks for the input Bison, I'm sure the cam won't change much either but I'm starting there for the reasons above. As far as the surge not hurting anything, I've read many other posts indicating otherwise. Any other opinions?

 

[bison]

I've read many other posts indicating otherwise.

Did you see proof of damage from surge posted in those threads that could be proven without a doubt that surge was the actual cause? I dont recall ever seeing anything like that with any of the 3 bolt turbos. The racers running extremely large wheels with a lot of inertia used to have problems with the compressor nut loosening with rapid throttle closure but that type of thing was not common with applications running these tiny turbos used by most to make under 1000hp. A lot of bull**** is posted on these forums which has absolutely no backing. Most are just someones wet dreams of what should happen but in reality dont happen and dont mean anything.

 

[we4Mateo]

Did you see proof of damage from surge posted in those threads that could be proven without a doubt that surge was the actual cause? I dont recall ever seeing anything like that with any of the 3 bolt turbos. The racers running extremely large wheels with a lot of inertia used to have problems with the compressor nut loosening with rapid throttle closure but that type of thing was not common with applications running these tiny turbos used by most to make under 1000hp. A lot of bull**** is posted on these forums which has absolutely no backing. Most are just someones wet dreams of what should happen but in reality dont happen and dont mean anything.

Thanks again for the help and I've learned the truth of your statements throughout life and especially with cars. Do you think the throttle body would help? I would think not as it's a throttle blade issue more than a volume issue. If surge doesn't cause damage I'm cool with it, but the car goes rich as the MAF sees more going in than the engine is taking and that is the main remaining issue. I also don't want an S cover if it hurts efficiency at high boost. The 44 is perfect for my goals short of the surge. I suppose my Dutt neck makes the surge worse too but I'm not changing that back either.

 

[bison]

Thanks again for the help and I've learned the truth of your statements throughout life and especially with cars. Do you think the throttle body would help? I would think not as it's a throttle blade issue more than a volume issue. If surge doesn't cause damage I'm cool with it, but the car goes rich as the MAF sees more going in than the engine is taking and that is the main remaining issue. I also don't want an S cover if it hurts efficiency at high boost. The 44 is perfect for my goals short of the surge. I suppose my Dutt neck makes the surge worse too but I'm not changing that back either.

S cover wont hurt anything but your wallet. Its not a bolt on. The backing plate is different also and im not sure if it could be done on the 44. You need to increase the throttle transition or reduce the turbine speed relative to the throttle angle to minimize the surge. I had surge with my combos that had 70mm TB's. The throttle angle has more of an impact than anything. Ive never had thrust failure from the surge i had either.

 

[Mike Licht]

I have never seen surge hurt anything. The most easy fix of all is just push down or let up on the throttle a bit and it will go away. Surge has a loat to do with how the driver drives the car and how far he presses the accelerator. That is why the big throttle body helps, it doesnt stop the surge it just moves it to a different place that the driver does not drive at.
Mike

 

[boostingbuick]

When I was running a te44 and my stock engine combo I had some issues with this. I just installed a small bosch bypass to remove the surge. It was not easy to hide but I just wanted to see if it would work. And it did. Not saying this is your fix, just wanted to share.