Champion Blocks ?

[kidglok]

Hard to say it depends on who is doing it but if I were making the block I would set it up so the only thing left to do would be final bore size and hone. Here is the reality, the first run of 50 blocks will cost over $100K if there is no problems. By the time you get boxes, store them and ship them from foundry to machine if you sold them at $3000 you would make little to no money. It would take likely a year plus to sell them in the current market. I doubt anyone wants their money tied up that long to no make much profit it just does not make good business sense.

Well said Mike.

 

[turboc87gn]

$2500-3000 is reasonable as long as the block is ready to go needing a touch hone to do standard bore,and it should be universal enough to replace a 109 or a stage block( if thats possible) I havent researched stage motors or even the 4.1 enough to know the differences between those and the 109 to know if one or two different castings could be used so it could appeal to a range of buyers in the buick community...Maybe even having dual bolt patterns so using newer model transmissions without needing an adapter plate is possible ...Mike you do make a good point its like being between a rock and a hard place buisness wise its hard to justify.. Perhaps champion could partner with a builder and do ready to go short/longblocks idk.....

 

[coach]

That's the beautiful thing about casting your own blocks. The walls can be made whatever you want. Right now we are limited to a 274 cube Stage 2. You could design the casting to take whatever size cylinder you want as long as the centerline between them stays common. We could beef the bottom end ( like 6 bolt mains) and make 300 cubes or bigger. You could make it so they accept the 4.3 Chevy internals or whatever you wish.
I would guess that most of us would be after an Off Center block that can go to 300 cubes or better. We have good heads to use but we would be back to a lack of good crankshafts to get real power out of...at least good "affordable" crankshafts.
There are small foundries around the country that would do batch orders...like 25 or so. I would have to ask Bob who is casting his, but I know he does smaller then 50 at a time. Iron blocks would be cheaper then alum also. I bet they could be done for $2000-$2500.
When you consider a 109 is approaching $500 and a girdle and scraper is $500, your halfway there before you even drop it off to be cleaned. It's a no brainer to me.

Side question...Is there a supplier of good strong 4.3 type forged cranks? This would be the best way to even consider this. Find what parts are available and build a block to fit.

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[bison]

I dont see how 300 cubes could easily be done. The cam bore is too low and the deck isn't tall enough. It would need to be re-engineered and add in a crap load of cost and require a bunch of special stuff to make it work. I wish I could say that I think people would spend $2-3k on a block. I don't see too many jumping all over that. The break even point is probably 75-100 blocks. It probably requires $150k just to get started and commit. It could take 3 years or more to sell 75 blocks. Any smart business man wouldn't take his 150k and invest it in this. There's a lot of money to be made elsewhere. It takes someone with passion for these cars and not caring about profit at all to complete this kind of project and have a lot of $$$.

 

[kidglok]

All that's needed is 14 bolt heads and 4 bolt mains with beefier webbing

 

[psycho6cyl]

i would bet 98% of the people want just bolt on fast goodies. Lucky for us our cars handle small mods well and our aftermarket parts make it easier. And i think another thing working against the aftermarket blocks is guys are going single digits on stockish blocks. so there is no real need to go and purchase aftermarket block,esp when our blocks are regular regal blocks sourced at your local yard. It sounds great and we would all love options but majority arent willing to pay the price to have these options. guys would rather throw huge turbos on stock drivetrains and cry when they blow it up. if majority arent willing to take the necc steps before modding theres not a snowballs chance in hell they will go and purchase these blocks bc they rather be safe than sorry.. just my .02

 

[Nick Micale]

Hard to say it depends on who is doing it but if I were making the block I would set it up so the only thing left to do would be final bore size and hone. Here is the reality, the first run of 50 blocks will cost over $100K if there is no problems. By the time you get boxes, store them and ship them from foundry to machine if you sold them at $3000 you would make little to no money. It would take likely a year plus to sell them in the current market. I doubt anyone wants their money tied up that long to no make much profit it just does not make good business sense.

Mike has pretty much nailed the issue as this actually mirrors the development and production of the TA alum block.

After the 10 years or so of them being on the market, less than 100 have been sold which now brings them near the break-even point. Maybe after another 10 years or so there could possibly be a profit if you want to forget about the stocking cost of a $4000 item?

Like Mike said, there is no profit in that type investment, and with the alum block record it may take 10 years to sell even 50 iron blocks.

A couple technical issues on iron blocks would have to be addressed, like is it a 3.8 bore or a 4.1 bore? It is simple and cost-effective for the alum block to change liners, machining the iron block to a bigger bore can be very time consuming.

Also, casting flaws on an alum can usually be easily fixed by welding or other repair, so the iron block casting would have a greater foundry scrap rate, hence increase costs.

Certainly it is apparent that the machine work and time on iron is a lot longer "messier" as iron filings are much more trouble to contain and handle than alum shavings.

And in the history on the alum block development, MANY people stated their "desire" to purchase one, and if they had been a serious buyer, there would have been 300 alum blocks sold by now!

I also do not see how an iron block could be sold for a little as $3000, so it would end up being close to the alum block cost.

Also, be very aware that any aftermarket block MUST be cleaned, checked and finish machined before it is assembled.

 

[coach]

I dont see how 300 cubes could easily be done. The cam bore is too low and the deck isn't tall enough. It would need to be re-engineered and add in a crap load of cost and require a bunch of special stuff to make it work. I wish I could say that I think people would spend $2-3k on a block. I don't see too many jumping all over that. The break even point is probably 75-100 blocks. It probably requires $150k just to get started and commit. It could take 3 years or more to sell 75 blocks. Any smart business man wouldn't take his 150k and invest it in this. There's a lot of money to be made elsewhere. It takes someone with passion for these cars and not caring about profit at all to complete this kind of project and have a lot of $$$.

I have never measured any of the centerline specs you just stated. I know that moving it on the 409 block so you could run a big block Chevy timing chain was no big deal. Neither was changing the main bearing size to accept the big Chevy crank. The casting forms are easy to make as you want. I guess since I am in on the design end of the 409 heads and blocks, I see it a different way. The block could be made to hold any V6 crank on the market or it could be made as a Chevy V6 and just use our heads and other bolt ons. If your casting an exact replica of a 109 then you will be limited to just bottom end improvements...like 4 bolt mains, which would be super.


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[Mike Licht]

I have never measured any of the centerline specs you just stated. I know that moving it on the 409 block so you could run a big block Chevy timing chain was no big deal. Neither was changing the main bearing size to accept the big Chevy crank. The casting forms are easy to make as you want. I guess since I am in on the design end of the 409 heads and blocks, I see it a different way. The block could be made to hold any V6 crank on the market or it could be made as a Chevy V6 and just use our heads and other bolt ons. If your casting an exact replica of a 109 then you will be limited to just bottom end improvements...like 4 bolt mains, which would be super.


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Bison is spot on, but moving the cam up is no big deal, finding a timing chain that will fit after you do that is however. Now we need a mega dollar custom chain. Changing the bearing size is nothing, finding a crank with this bearing sizes is again a custom part. 4.3 Chevy stuff is the wrong spacing, we tried that. As a matter of fact years ago we were going to make a block we went through all the discovery about what could and could not be done, we had the pattern maker and foundry from Dart agree to do he work. It came time to put up the money and that is when Mike from TA called me and told me about the aluminum block deal, how far along he was and told me that the block would be available "in a couple months" he politely asked me to consider standing down because he had already made a large investment. At the time it made sense to not move forward, in retrospect I wish we would have done it because it ended up being almost 2 years before TA actually had blocks for sale. These days if I need a block I will call Nick or Mike and get a TA, you guys are all asking for a block that we already have, I understand that it is $4K and $3K looks better but that iron $3K block is never going to happen the way I see it. Mike if you out there maybe we can get a GP together on your blocks and sell a lot of them at a discount, if you don't want to handle it I will be happy to, call me. I will be happy to get the word out to my customers to help you sell them if you do. Other than that I don't know what to do.
Mike

 

[kidglok]

These days if I need a block I will call Nick or Mike and get a TA, you guys are all asking for a block that we already have, I understand that it is $4K and $3K looks better but that iron $3K block is never going to happen the way I see it. Mike if you out there maybe we can get a GP together on your blocks and sell a lot of them at a discount, if you don't want to handle it I will be happy to, call me. I will be happy to get the word out to my customers to help you sell them if you do. Other than that I don't know what to do.
Mike

lets run this down for a sec. Say we go with an Off-center 4.1, the only oddball piece to put one in a car would be the motor mounts at $400?

Theoretically any heads, 86-87 intake, timing cover, oil pan, and rotating assembly (aside from custom pistons) should bolt in correct? And I think they all come set up for dry sump, so it could be converted to wet sump?

 

[Mike Licht]

You could set one up that way for sure. Just like all your stock parts would bolt up to am off center stage 2 except the rotating stuff and the oil pickup. there is a couple small items you need but everything pretty much works
Mike

 

[dr_frankenstein]

but good luck finding a decent off center 4.1

goood luck indeed.

 

[kidglok]

You could set one up that way for sure. Just like all your stock parts would bolt up to am off center stage 2 except the rotating stuff and the oil pickup. there is a couple small items you need but everything pretty much works
Mike

That's what im talking about.

I have cash in hand if you guys can get the group purchase thing going.

 

[XXQUICK6XX]

Mike has pretty much nailed the issue as this actually mirrors the development and production of the TA alum block.

After the 10 years or so of them being on the market, less than 100 have been sold which now brings them near the break-even point. Maybe after another 10 years or so there could possibly be a profit if you want to forget about the stocking cost of a $4000 item?

Like Mike said, there is no profit in that type investment, and with the alum block record it may take 10 years to sell even 50 iron blocks.

A couple technical issues on iron blocks would have to be addressed, like is it a 3.8 bore or a 4.1 bore? It is simple and cost-effective for the alum block to change liners, machining the iron block to a bigger bore can be very time consuming.

Also, casting flaws on an alum can usually be easily fixed by welding or other repair, so the iron block casting would have a greater foundry scrap rate, hence increase costs.

Certainly it is apparent that the machine work and time on iron is a lot longer "messier" as iron filings are much more trouble to contain and handle than alum shavings.

And in the history on the alum block development, MANY people stated their "desire" to purchase one, and if they had been a serious buyer, there would have been 300 alum blocks sold by now!

I also do not see how an iron block could be sold for a little as $3000, so it would end up being close to the alum block cost.

Also, be very aware that any aftermarket block MUST be cleaned, checked and finish machined before it is assembled.

Plus the repairability to (1) the cylinder liners can be replaced. If something goes wrong and (2) the block can be repaired I seen a example a while ago on the board where one was repaired and I was impressed. I told Mike I would buy one yeas ago when they had the tech secession at the convention center at the plaza. I made over 900 rwhp so far and know there are others that are making alot more than me with these blocks. I don't think they can be built by just anybody but in the proper hands they can be unbeliveable.

 

[Nick Micale]

That's what im talking about.

I have cash in hand if you guys can get the group purchase thing going.

I do not want to speak for TA, but I do not think a group purchase is possible at this time since I have purchased the last of the off-center blocks from the current batch, and we are building them now for customer's.

A couple on-center alum blocks are now available, but off-center ones are at least 6-9 months away.

Most all the TA alum builds we do are with stock-type oiling using a TA pick up tube/screen made specifically for this block either with a stock pan or a deep RJC oil pan. There are also other mods we do to assure proper oil drain back.

The big advantage of the block is strength as they have made close to 2000 HP. Also, there is the ability to repair damage that would put an iron block in the trash. Here is an example of a local tuner's mistake, but this engine is running again!

 

[tbone87]

Just couroius but how much is that repair.

 

[kidglok]

A couple on-center alum blocks are now available, but off-center ones are at least 6-9 months away.

Nick,

if the availability of on center rods are within the same price range of off center, I would still consider it. Also, will the on-center TA block accept an off center timing cover, or does TA make one for on center?

 

[coach]

You guys have already done the leg work in this, so all I was doing was offering what I knew of the new 409 blocks and heads. It's not as hard as some believe it to be.
If my new 109 ever goes...a TA Off center will replace it.


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[tbone87]

Now coach win u get urs done u will look like driving miss daisy. Slow rolling it! !!!!!

 

[Mike T]

You guys have already done the leg work in this, so all I was doing was offering what I knew of the new 409 blocks and heads. It's not as hard as some believe it to be.
If my new 109 ever goes...a TA Off center will replace it.


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Your story checks out. Just kidding you!