Champion Blocks ?

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Lets not forget for the $3k you save you will still have an 8 headbolt, girdled oil leaking machine that is a piece of glass at that power level and weighs 50# more. If budget is a concern even a good useable scratch and dent S2 block is still a better choice and would cost the same. Pennywise dollar foolish IMO, besides do you think you will be happy at 700 rwhp and just stop? You have little choice with the 109.

This post right here is the problem. To be a serious player in these parts you NEED to be pushing north of 700 and
realistically closer to the 1000 HP range (way TOO many Super cars). My cousin is building an LSX block and looking at 600 RWHP on pump gas and on top of that he is installing a 400 shot N2O and he is still concerned with looking at tail lights. I wouldn't be surprised if his build is north of $20K.
I have seriously thought about the big HP numbers and my conclusions were if a budget build looking for big numbers it would have to be production LS based. If budget wasn't a concern a built LSX block it is. I did fail to look at the TA block as a 1K HP capable option. which is why i am so interested in this thread (even though this started as a Champion thread)

 

[Mike E]

There has been a 4.020 bore on-center iron stage 2 block in the classifieds for close to a year now at much less than what everyone wants to pay for a block and no-one has bought it. Everybody says they want one, but when it's time to pony up the money things change.

 

[Mike Licht]

Ok...I just heard back from Bob Walla. If someone had the jigs and fixtures already for their alum blocks, he said it should be possible to get iron blocks made for about $700 per casting. He is at $1000 for a 409 casting and $1000 for machine work. They charge by weight, not by what it is. Bob has been designing castings for decades so he has it down to a science. The huge cost is in the initial design of the forms. $50-60k easy he said. It's not cheap but very possible.


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Ok lets use your numbers and do some math 1700 for a machined block + $50K for the tool if we made 50 blocks they would cost $2700 each (must account for tooling cost and that does not include crates or shipping from foundry to machine center to warehouse. you will have $100 to $150 there. this represents an investment of $140,000. We can get the cost down buy making more units to spread the tooling cost out some but at 100 blocks our cost is still $2300 or so. Nick has mentioned that TA has only sold 100 or so of these blocks ever so I think you can see why projects like this are "on hold" to me it makes sense to support the one who has it done but after Nick posted that there will ne no blocks for 6-9 months I only see guys buying LS motors, Stage stuff and junkyard 4.1's to put those in, no one including me is going to wait a year for a block plus the time to build when there is other stuff out there. FYI I just had Billy Briggs build a bulletproof LSX that can lay down 1900HP at will for a drag week car and the guy has less than 10K in the whole motor.

 

[coach]

I totally agree Mike. Bob said its not cheap, but it's doable. He is a one man operation. Like I said first...he has castings down to a science. Changing forms in mid production, altering centerlines...you name it. He was the guy who was casting heads for Darrell Alderman back when he was kicking ass.
I'm not speaking for any of you vendors and I know guys are cheap. They want the world for a dollar. Fortunately the 409 guys know better. They had no other option them to keep fixing 50 year old blocks and heads or start buying new. They are buying new. Since Bob started...I know of almost a dozen guys who are ready to sell their 502's and build the correct engine that belongs in a 1962-1964 full size Chevy. They left the Nostalgic circuit because you cannot run a rat engine in the wrong model car.


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[turbobuick]

This post right here is the problem. To be a serious player in these parts you NEED to be pushing north of 700 and
realistically closer to the 1000 HP range (way TOO many Super cars). My cousin is building an LSX block and looking at 600 RWHP on pump gas and on top of that he is installing a 400 shot N2O and he is still concerned with looking at tail lights. I wouldn't be surprised if his build is north of $20K.
I have seriously thought about the big HP numbers and my conclusions were if a budget build looking for big numbers it would have to be production LS based. If budget wasn't a concern a built LSX block it is. I did fail to look at the TA block as a 1K HP capable option. which is why i am so interested in this thread (even though this started as a Champion thread)

If you build a turbo motor and stay 88mm and smaller you will win with the little Buford it'll make more power and be a cheaper build for the 1000-1200 rwhp club. If you go larger than 88mm go with the LSx.

 

[whitehot1]

It seems the block everyone needs to make big hp is already available from TA Performance the aluminum v6 block.

I personally don't need the hp of a stage 2 engine but if i dd the TA Perf. block would be a no brainer to start with. I wouldn't be waiting for someone to make an inferior iron block and hope that it would save a few bucks over what seems to be a better and superior aluminum v6 block to use for building a high hp engine.

 

[kidglok]

I wonder how many hillbillies are riding around with stage engines in their car and don't even know it.


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[Mike T]

I wonder how many hillbillies are riding around with stage engines in their car and don't even know it.


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You say that as a joke but a guy I work with bought a 25,000 mile limited T from an estate. At first glance it looked like it only had a few bolt on parts but after a closer look I found that it had 14 bolt stage 1 heads & a stage II block. He by no stretch was uninformed about cars but just didn't realize what he had bought.

 

[Mike T]

When you do build it post pics and a thread. I love to see performance buick builds which seems to be a rarity these days on this site.

This is what I'm starting with.

 

[we4Mateo]

It seems the block everyone needs to make big hp is already available from TA Performance the aluminum v6 block.

I personally don't need the hp of a stage 2 engine but if i dd the TA Perf. block would be a no brainer to start with. I wouldn't be waiting for someone to make an inferior iron block and hope that it would save a few bucks over what seems to be a better and superior aluminum v6 block to use for building a high hp engine.

I've seen three T/A motors that didn't last well under so so hard use. Not saying anything is wrong with the block, but it seems to be a black art to find someone that knows how to put them together. DLS and RPE don't seem to be taking new business. Nick Micale and T/A know what's up, but those seem to be the only guys out there that can make those darn aluminum mills last! I want a T/A motor too, off center for street use, but it'd be nice if a local machine shop could put it together and correctly, but they can't. And it's not a $ issue that I wouldn't send away for it to be done, but it's nice to take it back to the same machine shop that built it if/when there is an issue or when time for a rebuild. If I ever go this route after my next 109 build, I'd only use Nick, but I doubt he'll be doing it by then anymore...

 

[turbo nasty]

Hell look how many 109's the local yocal machine shops screw up why couldnt they screw up the TA as well

 

[we4Mateo]

Hell look how many 109's the local yocal machine shops screw up why couldnt they screw up the TA as well

True. There are two guys local that seem to machine the stage II and 109 blocks fine, but no such luck on the aluminum. There must be something wrong with their math or the blocks act differently than other aluminum blocks. These guys seem to do fine on other aluminum V8s, but again, I think there are certain tricks to the T/A blocks that a few guys know; and probably found out the hard way. But maybe T/A would sell more blocks if they helped other shops set them up? I don't know. I'm uneducated and not trying to start anything.

 

[Chris Hogeland]

True. There are two guys local that seem to machine the stage II and 109 blocks fine, but no such luck on the aluminum. There must be something wrong with their math or the blocks act differently than other aluminum blocks. These guys seem to do fine on other aluminum V8s, but again, I think there are certain tricks to the T/A blocks that a few guys know; and probably found out the hard way. But maybe T/A would sell more blocks if they helped other shops set them up? I don't know. I'm uneducated and not trying to start anything.

Iv done A few TA blocks and got two more in the shop now to do. You just got to know how the aluminum reacts and adjust for it. I hope Tom comes through with his block it will be nice to have A new iron block to work with.

 

[Nick Micale]

When we built my TA engine, it was the first off-center block made, and it was apart and together in the shop 3 times before it was installed in the car.

Even though Zimmerman, the machinist, had built many other brands of alum engines, it was an involved learning curve even after my block left the shop. I do not know if Kenny D. has built more TA alum engines than we have, but between us we have done the majority of those produced.

But with well over 1500 passes, it is still doing great, and has never taken out a rod or main bearing.

Alum blocks do require different machining and process as it has cylinder liners that are harder than an iron block, and also different expansion rates than iron. Experience, knowledge, equipment and desire to make the assembly as perfect as possible are all needed to build an engine that will be reliable at the performance goal specified by the customer.

I do know this, the TA alum block has FAR surpassed the HP level of any iron stage block as Kenny has not been able to damage one, even when he has approached 2000 HP on his dyno!

 

[BEATAV8]

A TA block is on my wishlist.... maybe from the next batch. Just want to replace my 109 with something better and keep it simple.

Those blocks will keep selling for years to come.

 

[Reggie West]

A TA block is on my wishlist.... maybe from the next batch. Just want to replace my 109 with something better and keep it simple.

Those blocks will keep selling for years to come.

And you bring up a good point that's not being mentioned here. There is no reason you cant use the parts you have already bought to build a TA block with. Lets just say you have a crank and good rods, you may need a set of pistons but that is all very possible. Lifters will be different for sure. But my point being you can use a majority of the Buick parts you already run. That saves money.

 

[toomanymodz]

If there existed an off-center block which allowed me to build 300+ cubic inches of V6 power, I'd be all over it! My goal is to have a pump-gas-only combo that could run low to mid 10's. My current combo runs 11 flat and I'm doubtful that the T/A aluminum block in it's current form would reach that goal for me.

 

[coach]

And you bring up a good point that's not being mentioned here. There is no reason you cant use the parts you have already bought to build a TA block with. Lets just say you have a crank and good rods, you may need a set of pistons but that is all very possible. Lifters will be different for sure. But my point being you can use a majority of the Buick parts you already run. That saves money.

You are on track. In a few seasons, I will swap out the 109 block for the TA, when its due to be freshened up. I was planning on this already with a Stage 2 or TA.

 

[lazaris]

Reggie,
If you build a quality motor it cost no more or less to build the Buick V6 block included. Good rods pistons crank etc cost the same. Pistons are actually cheaper with the V6 since you only need 6. At the end of the day a apples to apples a quality Buick V6 build will cost the same if not LESS than a LSx motor in a turbo regal since there are less fab costs to put the motor in.

Just to add a point of information. Even if the costs are the same and the HP of each were similar the V-6 has to hold more HP per cylinder which is more stressful on the V-6.

 

[Eticket]

If there existed an off-center block which allowed me to build 300+ cubic inches of V6 power, I'd be all over it! My goal is to have a pump-gas-only combo that could run low to mid 10's. My current combo runs 11 flat and I'm doubtful that the T/A aluminum block in it's current form would reach that goal for me.

....not sure why you feel a TA motor couldn't do it at all.

Can be done with a bigger cubic inch stage motor with a decent combo. My very low compression heavy stage car went 10.4's with not a good converter and crazy back pressure 3 bolt turbo at 18psi. Never tried it with pump gas, but I know another stage motor car with 18psi went 9.6's also not an ideal combo. Louie Lopez when 10.2's with 13psi but with a bigger, more efficient turbo.