champion heads ?
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From what I've seen, YES!
The Champion cnc ported irons are a great bang for the buck. Have them do the intake manifold to match too. Very nice workmanship.
Happy spooling.
Mike Barnard
The Champion cnc ported irons are a great bang for the buck. Have them do the intake manifold to match too. Very nice workmanship.
Happy spooling.
Mike Barnard
Are you comparing home ported irons vs. Champion ported irons? ...... or
Are you comparing Champion ported irons vs. out-of-the box Champion GN1 Aluminum heads?
I believe he is talking about their CNC heads, as he is using stock heads to port.
I am sure there are some better ported iron heads out there somewhere. But as mentioned, bang for the buck - you can't go wrong with good old Champion iron CNC heads. They have a nice setup to make a very consistant product.
Mike
I am sure there are some better ported iron heads out there somewhere. But as mentioned, bang for the buck - you can't go wrong with good old Champion iron CNC heads. They have a nice setup to make a very consistant product.
Mike
Depends on who's doing the porting. I got my heads from nick micale @ Home and i know his heads flow better then the cnc champion.
However if you don't know someone who knows their **** you can't beat the cnc champion irons for the price.
ttypewhite
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It's funny how some people say their ported heads are better than Champions but the facts are Champion iron and aluminum have the best times out there period ie: Roy and Laz for irons and Don Cruz for aluminum. Tom produces a great product at reasonable pricing.
I'm just going on flow #'s. The Ported Irons from champion will be more then enough for most. :biggrin: and the price is hard to beat.
It takes a lot more than a flow # to make the most power with a cylinder head. More flow doesnt mean crap. If you go back about 2 years to the thread i have with the stock bottom end high mile engine i have a set of decent ported heads on there that are not Champion and old non bridged 6293 castings. Ive raced plenty pf cars and see plenty of sigs posted with supposedly better heads and the horsepower they are making doenst show it. If you are running iron heads with stock diameter/nearly stock low $ springs and dont have the heads modified for a larger spring you will find your limitation is not the flow of the ports. Champion are the most popular iron head but i doubt they are the fastest. Fwiw the old production config M&A heads JD ran on his tube chassis race car went 7's about 15 years ago. They may have been modded to the max but remained the quickest/fastest production style heads for a long long time.
We may possibly be getting off subject with all the talk of aluminum heads. I am thinking the OP was referring to iron heads, as he did state stock ported vs Champion.
As I stated before, I don't think you will ever go wrong with a set of CNC heads. They will definately improve your performance and allow you to get into the 9's with the proper combo and tune. More than a street car NEEDS. As for porting, they can be done better, but you better have someone that knows thes heads working them. Our motors are not a SBC with double humps getting a port job. I do agree that flow numbers are not everything. Tom has proven that higher flowing heads can actually drop power. The secret to any motor build is getting everything to work together.
Mike
As I stated before, I don't think you will ever go wrong with a set of CNC heads. They will definately improve your performance and allow you to get into the 9's with the proper combo and tune. More than a street car NEEDS. As for porting, they can be done better, but you better have someone that knows thes heads working them. Our motors are not a SBC with double humps getting a port job. I do agree that flow numbers are not everything. Tom has proven that higher flowing heads can actually drop power. The secret to any motor build is getting everything to work together.
Mike
I respectfully disagree on the higher flowing heads can drop power.
If you look at a heads flow at all the common lift numbers..... .200 , .300, .400, .500, .600 etc..... and if it flows more air as compared to a lesser head...... the potential is there to make more HP period.
If you don't pick the surrounding parts to work with your heads..... then it is on you....
All things considered..... higher flowing heads will yield a higher potential HP everytime.
Bison's comment about it taking more than flow to make big power is true to the extent... that you have to pick the right combo of parts..... and have the right tune.... to make the big power. His main point was that just having high flowing heads is not some magic pill to make big HP. The fact is.... if the person with the better flowing heads.... put the right combo together with the heads.... and tuned the car right (chassis and engine/tranny/gearing)..... he has a potential to go quicker.
You don't see the front runners in TSO running poor flowing heads..... cause they will get their @ss handed to them if they did.
X2 ! Nothing set of heads we have here we went 10.10 . I am not talking a TSM/TSO car ... STREET junk.
turbofabricator
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On Dennis' car he picked up 2 1/2 tenths (if that) by going from a set of decent ported irons to a set of GN1 aluminums. He also installed a bigger turbo and a bigger intercooler at the same time. So how much did the heads help? Probably nothing. Not touting my head porting, I'm KNOW there are better heads out there. Again, its not just flow numbers. You can't possibly evaluate a running engine under boost with flow numbers. Most head porters flow their heads with 28" water depression. You would have to have a flow bench that could flow something like 1500 in. water to equal 20+ pounds of boost. Might have to buy something fron NASA when their funding dries up.
Grumpy has more time tuning engines than most of us have been alive. YOu do something long enough, you figure out what works. ('cept me, I'm still trying to remember spark plug gaps.....is it .045"?....032"? Aww geeze, I gotta go do a street shout out.)
That is where the power is. Tuning and learning to tune. If you are not running 11.00 on stock heads, then you need to do a better tune up.
Grumpy has more time tuning engines than most of us have been alive. YOu do something long enough, you figure out what works. ('cept me, I'm still trying to remember spark plug gaps.....is it .045"?....032"? Aww geeze, I gotta go do a street shout out.)
That is where the power is. Tuning and learning to tune. If you are not running 11.00 on stock heads, then you need to do a better tune up.
johnplogii
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My iron heads are from Dan Strezo at DLS, been 9.30's at 144.
That is getting it done!
Do your heads have the valves in the stock locations?
I understand there are a few sets of highly modified irons whose valves have been moved further apart.... and valve seats recut.... chambers laid back.....to enable larger valves....and larger porting..... unshrouding the valves.....allowing for more flow. How much more? I dunno.
IMHO the hype about how fast XX went on iron heads shouldn't include these one off mega dollar highly modified stock based heads. It is out of reach for all but the top echelon people on here.
With that said...... 144mph on iron heads is in fact screaming....... and I respect that number regardless.
To quote Razor....."you sir, are at the top of the food chain".
Well done.
johnplogii
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Thank you Blazer, and no, the valves have not been moved or anything crazy like that. I'm not 100% sure but I think they are actually stock sized valves. Dan didn't say but they look to have a hair more clearance between them than my 1.77/1.50's in my old heads. There is alot more to a good combination than just good heads, that being said, champion irons or ones done well like mine can make good power. I'm pretty sure mine will go faster next year, I just got it running a couple weeks before our trip where it ran those times.
I basically said what Bison said with respect to getting everything to work together.
No problem with disagreement about flow can hurt. I am referring to replacing set A heads that flowed 200 with set G heads that flow 400. That can very well drop power. With your disagreement, you actually agree with this logic with your comment that you build a motor by picking the right combination of parts. Now if we are talking heads A and G on the same motor, then G can result in less power. That is my point.
ind you, my letter and numbers are only for reference. I do not want to confuse people like I know a lot, just enough to begin to understand a little.
Again, it is about matching parts that compliment each other !
Mike
No problem Michael.
We all agree that the combo of parts and tune need to be carefully tweaked to maximize the potential.
Bison's shown an many occasions of examples where less sometimes yields more if you are better at picking matched parts and tuning.
My point is with the same attention to detail and tuneup... thet the higher flowing heads will be quicker.
Jerryl
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As far as the OP’s question
:I would say “It depends on your goal/budget”.
If your goal is say 600 HP, probably not.
If the goal is “re-sale value” or “purchase cost”, than the answer is “yes, there is a big difference”.
Regarding flow numbers;
In my mind
, on a turbo charged motor, one of the critical areas of the HP equation is the back pressure and it's affect on VE. Charged systems are pretty forgiving to the “lack of intake flow”, to a point . . . . . but on a turbo car, you have to determine how to deal with the physics of the reversion/BP to maximize VE..
turbofabricator
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As far as the OP’s question
. . . . . but on a turbo car, you have to determine how to deal with the physics of the reversion/BP to maximize VE.
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Jerryl, what does The BP oil spill and Venezuala have to do with ported heads?
Seems like everyone is on the same page here. That's good. We as a group are not arguing about flow numbers like is done on other boards.
By the way, Beamer, where do I get a set of those "G" heads you are talking about? They sound like they are pretty cool. 400cfm is almost as good as the old Kenne-Bell ported heads they use to sell. I think they claimed they made 500hp and 200 tenths over their competition.
(I'm being sarcastic, hopefully obviously)
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