Champion's ported intake

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Was reading on their ported intakes, and their individual runner flow numbers are not the same. How. I thought the entire purpose for a flowbench was to make sure they were. What gives?

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

I see these numbers,
1 209 2 204
3 221 4 214
5 221 6 222 as cfm per runner.

And now, how does the power plate affect these numbers? And theoretically, if I were to match every runner exactly, would the need for the power plate be lessened to any degree? I know that the imbalance is largely due to the dog house design but would this help out any?

I also see that on the stock manifold, the numbers start to flow higher as you travel rearward:
1 161 2 157
3 175 4 160
5 177 6 172

So was this part of the original problem with the rears flowing differently than the fronts, and the front leaning out/running rich as a result? What if you ported a stocker, so that these disparities were reversed? Port it so that it looks like this:

1 204 2 204
3 202 4 202
5 200 6 200

True, you're limiting your airflow to around 200 cfm, but would there be any gain from the overall tune being more even under wot conditions? Would a manifold that flowed like this be able to eliminate the power plate altogether? Has this been attempted?

 

[bison]

None of these numbers matter much at all. Your engine won't flow anywhere near that and egt in every cylinder would be much better for tuning cylinders than looking at what an intake flows on a flow bench. I don't run a power plate on my fast car not do any of the fast cars and cylinder to cylinder variances aren't too bad. The front cylinders in high hp engines are leaner than the rear which is the opposite of what you thought.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

None of these numbers matter much at all. Your engine won't flow anywhere near that and egt in every cylinder would be much better for tuning cylinders than looking at what an intake flows on a flow bench. I don't run a power plate on my fast car not do any of the fast cars and cylinder to cylinder variances aren't too bad. The front cylinders in high hp engines are leaner than the rear which is the opposite of what you thought.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

So our intakes outflow our engines? And I agree with the egt thing, but that's inconvenient and expensive lol. I was just hoping on getting the airflow all nice and even on a flow bench (I know this is theoretical) so it would lessen that possibility in my head. (I often lie awake and wonder about things like cylinder "evenness", combustion quality, etc. etc.)
So when does one need a ported intake then? And in your expert opinion, when does a powerplate hold one back? And what is your definition of high horsepower, so I have that reference in my head.
Do the stock appearing Hemco dog houses really help re-distribute air flow like a powerplate does?

 

[bison]

So our intakes outflow our engines? And I agree with the egt thing, but that's inconvenient and expensive lol. I was just hoping on getting the airflow all nice and even on a flow bench (I know this is theoretical) so it would lessen that possibility in my head. (I often lay away and wonder about things like cylinder "evenness", combustion quality, etc. etc.)
So when does one need a ported intake then? And in your expert opinion, when does a powerplate hold one back? And what is your definition of high horsepower, so I have that reference in my head.
Do the stock appearing Hemco dog houses really help re-distribute air flow like a powerplate does?

The stock intake with port exit square up will outflow any iron head by a long shot and outflow 99% of the engines you see posted about on here. It's not even close. We've seen 100lbs/min through a stock intake. High horsepower is over 75lbs/min imo. That's well beyond the reliability point of a stock short block and way beyond a bolt on racers engine. I don't know the rpm/displacement limit for an rjc power plate. It has quite a bit of open area so I would expect it to be quite high. You should calculate the cross sectional open area then you can get a much more exact answer


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

The stock intake with port exit square up will outflow any iron head by a long shot and outflow 99% of the engines you see posted about on here. It's not even close. We've seen 100lbs/min through a stock intake. High horsepower is over 75lbs/min imo. That's well beyond the reliability point of a stock short block and way beyond a bolt on racers engine. I don't know the rpm/displacement limit for an rjc power plate. It has quite a bit of open area so I would expect it to be quite high. You should calculate the cross sectional open area then you can get a much more exact answer


BPE2013@hotmail.com

I see. That's good to know. So use a stocker for a ported iron head then. Got it. And what do you mean by "port exit square up'?
And is it still worth it to port match the whole intake/gasket/head openings?

 

[The Radius Kid]

I see these numbers,
1 209 2 204
3 221 4 214
5 221 6 222 as cfm per runner.

And now, how does the power plate affect these numbers? And theoretically, if I were to match every runner exactly, would the need for the power plate be lessened to any degree? I know that the imbalance is largely due to the dog house design but would this help out any?

I also see that on the stock manifold, the numbers start to flow higher as you travel rearward:
1 161 2 157
3 175 4 160
5 177 6 172

So was this part of the original problem with the rears flowing differently than the fronts, and the front leaning out/running rich as a result? What if you ported a stocker, so that these disparities were reversed? Port it so that it looks like this:

1 204 2 204
3 202 4 202
5 200 6 200

True, you're limiting your airflow to around 200 cfm, but would there be any gain from the overall tune being more even under wot conditions? Would a manifold that flowed like this be able to eliminate the power plate altogether? Has this been attempted?

I think you answered your own question.
There are ways around using the plate,but it's going to cost a lot of time and money.
Although this subject has been beat to death,the small amount of loss is more than made up for by synergy among the cylinders.
That's the same thing engine builders and designers around the world try to optimize for efficiency reasons.
How you use that efficiency is up to you,but there's always a price to be paid achieving it.

 

[bison]

I see. That's good to know. So use a stocker for a ported iron head then. Got it. And what do you mean by "port exit square up'?
And is it still worth it to port match the whole intake/gasket/head openings?

look at the outlet of a stock runner especially near the injector. You will see what I mean. There is zero in gasket matching. The ports should be matched or at minimum the intake port should not have more cross section than the head


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Yea, that will create a shelf for the airflow to hit, right?

And radius kid, you're right. But I like to re-verify things before I go ahead and pull the trigger on new purchases. I always do last minute verifications before choosing a direction. A few of you already helped me avoid some costly purchases already.

 

[pacecarta]

. I don't run a power plate on my fast car not do any of the fast cars .


BPE2013@hotmail.com

murphster still has his power plate on his champion ported stocker w/PTE plenum , his heads are unported Gn1s and intake gasket is a stock 96033 felpro as pulled from the box , no opening it up was needed for a good port matchup

on my 86 i dont have a " ported " manifold or a powerplate , just the egr tower eliminated , ,
I agree with bison about the stock being well capable for more than most would ever get from their combos especially on irons ..my heads are irons unported on the runners and the stock intake didnt need any work to line up fine and installed with a felpro 96033 gasket . It would actually be counter productive to open the intake which would make it larger than the head port ,

 

[bison]

murphster still has his power plate on his champion ported stocker w/PTE plenum , his heads are unported Gn1s and intake gasket is a stock 96033 felpro as pulled from the box , no opening it up was needed for a good port matchup

on my 86 i dont have a " ported " manifold or a powerplate , just the egr tower eliminated , ,
I agree with bison about the stock being well capable for more than most would ever get from their combos especially on irons ..my heads are irons unported on the runners and the stock intake didnt need any work to line up fine and installed with a felpro 96033 gasket . It would actually be counter productive to open the intake which would make it larger than the head port ,

I'm waiting for you to take Murphs car and turn it up with you driving. I've got a Hemco plenum here to throw on and I'll supply 5 gallons of high octane fuel. Let me know when you're ready. 32-33psi should be interesting. Might need taller gearing to fully take advantage


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[ZNix]

Interesting stuff here. Good read!

Posted from the TurboBuick.Com mobile app

 

[TTipe]

murphster still has his power plate on his champion ported stocker w/PTE plenum , his heads are unported Gn1s and intake gasket is a stock 96033 felpro as pulled from the box , no opening it up was needed for a good port matchup

on my 86 i dont have a " ported " manifold or a powerplate , just the egr tower eliminated , ,
I agree with bison about the stock being well capable for more than most would ever get from their combos especially on irons ..my heads are irons unported on the runners and the stock intake didnt need any work to line up fine and installed with a felpro 96033 gasket . It would actually be counter productive to open the intake which would make it larger than the head port ,

The Champion ported intake removes the EGR tower from the lower plenum which in turn allows the front cylinders (1 & 2- two being the worst) to pick up air flow. If the air can be turned (a certain plenum does that) then the air distribution becomes move even. The use of an engine management system with an A/F tolerance/learning will work in conjunction. I would also suggest that a pressure drop exists across the power plate. A monometer above and below the power plate will tell the tale. Add the power plate pressure drop to the difference of the air pressure out of the turbo and the pressure into the throttle body.

 

[turbofabricator]

I do not race a flow bench. A flow bench is a tool and not a very good one when running 24psi and higher boost. I will admit to never trying back to back stock intake to a well ported intake. However at high boost levels you need a lot more port volume then a flow bench will ever show a gain with. I have verified performance gains at the track (involving increases in port volume) that the flow bench does not show any gain. For high power engines you can't have too much port volume (with in the confines of available parts) as long as you don't kill low lift numbers. This is just my opinion and it has worked well on any boosted engine I have built from Gm Ford Ferrari and even huge Rolls Royce V-12's. But.....I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[The Radius Kid]

I do not race a flow bench. A flow bench is a tool and not a very good one when running 24psi and higher boost. I will admit to never trying back to back stock intake to a well ported intake. However at high boost levels you need a lot more port volume then a flow bench will ever show a gain with. I have verified performance gains at the track (involving increases in port volume) that the flow bench does not show any gain. For high power engines you can't have too much port volume (with in the confines of available parts) as long as you don't kill low lift numbers. This is just my opinion and it has worked well on any boosted engine I have built from Gm Ford Ferrari and even huge Rolls Royce V-12's. But.....I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

True enough,however a flow bench can show trends that should guide you in the right direction if you know how to interpret the trends.
I did read that flow testing should be done at 40" instead of 28" for a better interpretation of what's going on.
Have you heard of this?

 

[turbofabricator]

If you could flow at near boost levels that would show real trends. Something like 1500 inches of water. About 25 years ago I did the math to calculate 20psi but I don't remember what I had for lunch, so 1500 is probably way off, but you get the idea. Then add to the issue that the intake valve is sending the air column all over hells half acre bouncing up and down disrupting air flow so much that who really knows what is going on in there? I do think our plenumn volume is way too small but five different engine builders will give you 20 different views on what it should be. Maybe.....kinda.....sorta. Clear as mud, right? Bumble bees can't fly, either.

 

[Nick Micale]

Then add to the issue that the intake valve is sending the air column all over hells half acre bouncing up and down disrupting air flow so much that who really knows what is going on in there? I do think our plenumn volume is way too small........

HP is all about air flow [and fuel] and when you modify a stock GN the main goal is to put more air into the engine. I fully agree plenum volume is much more important than matching flow numbers on the intake manifold as the turbo will "stuff" enough air into the combustion chamber as it is needed and available.

If the "reservoir" of air is adequate in the plenum at all boost levels, then enough air will be present for proper combustion.

Your TA-61 turbo is at the threshold of the plenum having enough air readily available for each cylinders at RPM, so I would be more concerned about that than equal intake runner numbers?

Theory and numbers are no match for real world experience and testing when trying to optimize HP on a given combination. It may be a good starting point, but best results are obtained on the dyno and track!

Here is an example of how we address this issue:

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

That makes sense. But just to confirm, you said my TA61 is at the threshold, meaning that I'm coming up on a restriction, being my doghouse?

 

[Pronto]

No I believe Nick is referring to total volume of the manifold filled with compressed intake charge. If you look at his manifold there is a spacer to increase the manifold volume.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

My ported champion stock intake ports match up to my un-race ported GN1 heads when I've peeked down in there with the plenum off. I sold my power plate when I went to this new setup. It's run 125 mph at 17-18 psi boost vs having to run 27 psi boost to run 125-126 mph in the 1/4 on bowl ported irons and bone stock intake. Converter locked on those runs. Same cam/turbo/intercooler/headers/exhaust on both combos. I'd never run iron heads, for a little more money new aluminum big valve GN1's are a no brainer. Matched with a ported champion stock intake, can't go wrong.