Cooling results without Thermostat vs. with

turbo nasty

Turbo Dojo / MNTR
Joined
Jul 19, 2001
Over the summer I tried a few different things since I revamped my cooling system with a new radiator (large alum), etc and wanted to test running a tstat vs not.

I tried running without a thermostat and the car ran 20ish degrees hotter vs. with it and the engine would spike the temp after pounding on it and took much longer to recover and couldn't maintain a avg temp very well.

The water just absolutely blasts through the radiator WITHOUT the tstat in there and this doesn't allow the water enough time in the heat exchanger (radiator core) to get the heat out of it.

Example....
You have a piece of metal (coolant) thats hot and you want to cool it off by passing it through a stream of cool water (radiator) if you pass the metal through the water quickly then its not going to have the heat wicked from it vs. passing it through slowly.

With the tstat in, up to temp and opened the flow of water through the core is reduced and works as it should.

Just my findings and many of you already know this, i'm just posting the info for future searches.
 
You need to either run a thermostat or a restrictor in it's place to slow down the coolant flow like you stated. Otherwise the coolant doesn't have adequate time to dissipate heat as it travels thru the radiator.

Neal
 
AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGG.

You walk out on the front porch, look down, and notice that your arm is on fire........

Are you going to set the garden hose on a trickle so every last water droplet can absorb as much heat as possible?......

-or- are you going to turn the hose on full blast and let a shit load of water droplets absorb a little bit of heat each (and put your arm out quicker)?



In your example, it sounds like you had some cavitation problems, localized boiling, collapsing lower radiator hose, or a problem maintaining a pressure head. Slowing down the water flow (in a working system) is NEVER a net positive. It makes the radiator less efficient, and forces the temps in the engine to be more uneven than they have to.
 
More time in the radiator cooling, the more time in the motor heating....
Argg is right. More flow = more cooling.
This is why they make higher speed fans.
This is why they make high flow pumps.

Something else is going on....
 
System is fine..... its just that my opinion and results differ from yours.

You cant exchange heat by it moving too quickly through the heat exchanger...

Earl your example is backwards....

The hose is the radiator and the arm the coolant.

Im pretty sure your not have your flame engulfed arm flying through the water stream your going to get it in there...keep it in the water and let it get cooled.


Boil water in a pot and then place it in the fridge to cool off if you pull it right back out its not going to cool.

You have to allow TIME for the heat to be removed from the water while its in the place (radiator) to do so.
 
I'm on a team that has an 24 hr endurance race car. New W/P and new aluminum rad on a 1.6 Honda we ran with out a thermostat and the temps would climb to 200/210 and would have gone higher if we didn't slow down .
We put in a 170 the next day and the car ran 170-180 max.
 
I used to run a roundy round lil dirt track car and experienced the same lap after lap of north of 6 thousand rpm and it would over heat without a restrictor .....which was simply a tstat with the pill cut out of it. I did this will the Buick to see if it was any different...nope.
 
Earl is right. More flow is more cooling. Learned that in engineering school. There are other problems like the ones he mentioned that cause the system to fail to cool.

The root cause of the failure is the same as everyone has suspected, no thermostat. But the mechanism is not "too much coolant flow rate".
 
Earl your example is backwards....

The hose is the radiator and the arm the coolant.

Im pretty sure your not have your flame engulfed arm flying through the water stream your going to get it in there...keep it in the water and let it get cooled.


Boil water in a pot and then place it in the fridge to cool off if you pull it right back out its not going to cool.

You have to allow TIME for the heat to be removed from the water while its in the place (radiator) to do so.


No, the arm is the heated source that needs to be cooled, the water in the hose is the coolant.

In your example you waived a piece of hot steel under a cooling medium briefly. Our cars maintain contact with coolant 100% of the time. If you want to cool the steel and you're in a hurry, do you use a trickle or a firehose? The specific heat of water is 1BTU per F per pound. A cubic foot of water takes
62.3 BTUs to cool it just 1*F. Since we're worried about time, there's two ways to do it in a hurry.... You can hit it with something VERY VERY VERY cold (not an option with our setups) -or- you can hit it with a BUNCH of things that are slightly colder.
Would you go slow and get $15 an hour from now or a penny every second? :)

On you car I would guess that your radiator either flows like gangbusters, the lower hose likes to collapse or dance, or a combination of the both. Omitting the thermostat changed the dynamics enough to cause cavitation and/or localized boiling and/or other goofy stuff. When you mentioned spikes after beating on it I'm wonder if the high RPMs sucked the lower hose shut, the pump cavitated and started a cascade failure.



A radiator is a heat exchanger (technically it's a 'conductor/convector' as that's how it does most of it's cooling). The goal when keeping engine temps under control is to conduct heat from the engine into the coolant. Then a pump, pumps the coolant with the stored energy into the radiator. Coolant weighs over 62#'s per cubic foot and air weighs .08#'s per cubic foot. All things being equal (and 100% efficient), it takes a bunch of air just to average the temps of the two.


When it comes to heat rejection, the main factor is 'Delta T' which is a fancy way of saying 'difference in temperature' which is a fancy way of saying 'your cooling system works better in Antarctica'.

If the ambient air outside (or the back of the A/C condenser) is 100F and you desire 160F you only have a '60 degree Delta T' to work with. If it's 150F due to a front mount and running the A/C in a parking lot you only have a 10F Delta T. That's not a flow issue, that's a physics thing.


Now when it comes to cooling going so fast it can't lose heat, that's just wrong. It takes some abstract thought to wrap your mind around what's going on. If you want to lose the most amount of BTU's per unit of time the way to increase that is to make the coolant entering the radiator hotter!


When it exits the engine, it's as hot as it's going to get (assuming it's cooler than 180F outside :) ). The hot coolant enters the radiator on the DS and that's where Delta T is the greatest. That first inch leaving the tank will have the most amount of heat transfer as from it's point of view the air 'feels the coolest' going across it. As the coolant works it's way across the flues, it's getting cooled and getting closer to ambient. As the coolant cools down, the Delta T gets smaller and smaller so less heat gets moved into the airstream.


Let's say you slow the flow level down so that the coolant can crawl through the radiator so it can't 'go too fast to lose heat'. Lets say in this example when it's halfway across the fins, the coolant temp is the same as the outside air... You just wasted 1/2 the radiator.
At the same time in that example the #1 and #2 combustion chambers are boiling the crap out of the head and detonating like crazy because there's not replacement coolant flushing the heat away. Since the coolant is going so slow, it enters the engine 'cold as hell' and had the front cylinders ice cold.... as it absorbed buttloads of heat from the three cylinder walls, then each of the other 2 combustion chambers before getting to the front two cylinders. You have a severe mismatch in temps across the engine, localized boiling, and all kinds of interesting (very bad things) that water does when it's pressures and phases are dancing all over the place. To make things worse, the steam will act as an insulator for the iron and act as a physical buffer to keep the coolant from even touching the melting engine. (that's how firewalkers walk across coals. The steam layer keeps the heat source from setting fire to their feets)


Now lets at what happens when the coolant 'goes too fast to cool'... When it's comes out of the engine at full temp and enters the radiator, just like in the other example it has the same Delta T relative to ambient conditions. But since it's moving along at a good pace, the radiator gets to use the entire flue length to reject heat energy (the equivalent of doubling you radiator width/ doubling useable airflow). Plus with the added velocity and pressure there will be increased tumble and 'scrubbing' going on between the coolant and flues increasing efficiency.
The faster the coolant is going, the move even the temp is inside the engine. When the gauge reads '180F' for example, it's only that temp at the location of the sending unit. The temp is progressively cooler as you work your way backwards through the head and block towards the radiator outlet.

Now with the pump, velocity matters here too. For a pump to move mass you have two sides to consider... The high pressure side and the low pressure side. For a pump to be working right it needs a pressure head. When that fails you have cavitation and other nasties going on. (If you've ever seen a pump cavitate on the dyno, you'd wonder how the radiator hoses didn't disintegrate. They can go berzerk!)

For a pump to be loaded with the head it needs to do it's job it had to have a pressure differential. On a sealed cooling system like in a car it pulls from the bottom of a radiator through a rubber hose. (the hose needs to be meaty and/or have a spiral wound metal coil in it to keep it from collapsing or being a flow restriction). It then pumps the water into the block, to the back of the block, into the heads (series cooling in this example, not parallel cooling), through the heads and into the thermostat housing. Normally the thermostat itself is the orifice/restriction so that the block in under pressure to load the pump, raise the boiling point of the coolant, and minimize localized boiling and phase changes. With a normal GN/TTA if you remove the thermostat the radiator flues becomes the choke point, which is fine....


***historical data*** We've all heard the wives tales of how removing the thermostat will make your car overheat. This particular tale doesn't apply to us. On older SBC cars and cars with the radiator cap on the same tank at the top hose the extra velocity overwhelms the spring in the cap, slowly vents the coolant.... when the coolant mass isn't enough to keep up with heat rejection needs, overheating leads to phase change.... then it's all over.
Think putting your finger over the end of the garden hose. The house pressure is still the same but the extra velocity (force) will blast the bikini top off your houseguest.


On our cars, the cap is on the low pressure side of the radiator. It's basically just exposed to system pressure not pressure+velocity (PSIA .vs PSIT).




Moral of the story our hotrods make 'X' amount of waste heat (in the water jacket) which means with only have to get rid of exactly 'X' into the air stream. The faster the flow, the more even the temps across the combustion chambers ft to r.

Obsessing over certain flows or certain restrictions are usually just covering up a more basic issue that just isn't obvious.


Don't get me wrong, I love figuring out new and interesting ways to mess with stuff. You know, like figuring out how to survive without working, and talking nice young ladies into taking it up the exit pipe, and getting free hottubs off craigslist... but I've heat to figure out how to break the laws of physics.
 
Not reading all of that......and there is so much left on the table with air flow, temp saturation of exchange media, etc...whatever.
but anyways you run without and I'll run with.:)
 
I actually run with one. After I tossed my orig radiator If I take my thermostat out my engine runs too cold :D
 
I do not know about 1.6 Hondas or do I care, and I have NEVER found a TR that has run hotter without a thermostat, but what I DO know is a Buick turbo WILL run cooler here in the desert without one as well as the many other vehicles I have serviced over the years. :)

Spout all the theoretical rhetoric from the internet and others, but in the real world here it is insane to run a t'stat in the long, hot summer months especially like today when it was 110 deg. in my garage? :eek:
 
AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGG.

You walk out on the front porch, look down, and notice that your arm is on fire........

Are you going to set the garden hose on a trickle so every last water droplet can absorb as much heat as possible?......

-or- are you going to turn the hose on full blast and let a shit load of water droplets absorb a little bit of heat each (and put your arm out quicker)?

Earl....Is it still on fire? Run and get a towel, soak it in cold water and then wrap it around your arm...you should be okay in a couple minutes!
:D
 
I'm on a team that has an 24 hr endurance race car. New W/P and new aluminum rad on a 1.6 Honda we ran with out a thermostat and the temps would climb to 200/210 and would have gone higher if we didn't slow down .
We put in a 170 the next day and the car ran 170-180 max.
24 hours of lemons?

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hello people; How about experimenting with differant stat ratings. Meaning everyone tells you to run a 160 stat and I believe like a 170 would be best. The coolant temp would be more constant and IMO would be better. They don't make a 170 for our cars but there was someone here who modded one but I don't think there was an answer on the outcome. I'm talking for a street car as what your doing I believe.
IBBY
 
Run a 160 in 100 degree weather and climb a 5k high mountain pass at 80mph twice a day. Never had a problem on a 17x17 radiator with a 4.1.

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24 hours of lemons?

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Yes. We are racing this Sat /Sun at Carolina Motor Speedway.
We have a car and plans for building a SFI v6 Buick regal for the March 2014 races...
 
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