Debate on E85... why use it??

[callmeebryan]

Making this short and brief as i would like to start a nice debate about this.

Pros:
Higher octane which allows for more timing, more boost.
About $0.30 cheaper/gallon than gasoline.
Releives our dependency on foriegn oil supplies.

Cons:
You must use about 180% the amount as you would with gasoline (LESS MPG)
E85 emits the same amount of CO2 as gasoline.
Not very many pumps that sell this stuff nationwide.

I was reading an article on an experiment done by a bunch of college students. They took a FlexFuel Chevy Tahoe on a 333mile one way, completing a round trip of 666miles; one run on gasoline, the other on E85. Their trip on Gasoline averaged about 18.3mpg, and on E85 they averaged about 13.5mpg.

Lets put this into perspective.

The average price of gasoline they paid was $3.42/gal. They used about 36.5 gallons of gasoline on the trip, $124.66 worth of fuel.

The average price of E85 that they paid was $3.09/gal. They used about 50 gallons of E85 on the trip, $154.29 worth of fuel.

A motorist, filling up and comparing the prices of regular gas and E85, might see the price advantage of E85 (in their case,9.7 percent less) as a bargain. However, since fuel economy is significantly reduced, the net effect is that a person choosing to run their flex-fuel vehicle on E85 on a trip like theirs will spend 22.8% more to drive the same distance. For them, the E85 trip was about $30 more expensive — about 22.9 cents per mile on E85 versus 18.7 cents per mile with gasoline.

E85 is NOT the answer to this country's fuel problems!!!!!!!!

They saw a man at a gas station filling up his E85 Flex Fuel truck.... they decided to ask him some questions.....

"Edmunds.com: How do you like running on E85?
Avalanche Owner: The mileage sucks. On gas I can get 18 (miles per gallon). On E85 I get like 12.

Did you buy this truck so you could run on E85?
Yup.

But you get worse gas mileage. So why do you do it?
To help the environment."

Im shake my head every time i read that interview... its rediculous the way people are so inaccurate in their thinking!

So my question to you guys is why are you using E85? Are you only using it on your Buicks for performance reasons or are you using it on other regular daily driver cars as well? I can see, from a performance view, that its a cheap performance fuel that you can buy at a gas station. But the average joe doesnt care about that.

I would like to hear your guys input about this.

 

[Scooter3800]

If I could afford to switch my GN to run propperly on E85 I would....who wouldn't its 105 octane for less than $3 a gallon.

E85 is a bandaid fix - it will never replace gasoline.

I think the moral of the story here is that we have the ability to become less dependant on foreign oil.

Don't like it, don't buy it

 

[turbows6]

I feel like E85 is an excellent move for this country because it's renewable and keeps our dollars from going overseas to countries where they could be used to fund individuals that hate Americans. I feel that in the future people will not have the luxury of burning up fuel like it's an endless supply. I think our dependence on foreign oil is dangerous to our country and economy and we don't have to compete against other countries like Russia and China to pay for ethanol that is made in America.

I believe that a high octane fuel like E85 will permit the use of a small engine in cars with turbochargers to make power when needed and it has the potential to allow automakers to make vehicles that get equal fuel mileage to current gas powered cars. Current flex fuel vehicles can use E85, but are not mechanically designed to take advantage of the fuel to it's full potential because the prime focus on flex fuel vehicles is still mainly gasoline use.

I just question weather or not we can produce enough of it to make it a viable option. Currently ethanol is only used as 3.5% of Americas fuel in automobiles according to what i have read, but Ethanol production is going up quickly in the US.

I don't complain about gas prices (which are forecasted to be at 4$ a gallon in six weeks acording to CNN today) I just take action and limit driving as much as possible and have a 4 cylinder s-10 that gets great mileage for daily driving. I would consider buying a small car that ran on E85 for a daily driver if it were available in my area. I can understand why people have good points to argue for gasoline, but in the long run it's going to run out and you can't deny that. We need to switch gradually to E85 or some other renewable energy or face the consequences of what will happen when gas is not available.

What would happen if China and or Russia stepped into the middle east and decided to take over to get the fuel they need for their rapidly growing infrastructure? My guess is that we couldn't stop them as much as I hate to say it because they'd have us outnumbered 10 to 1 and it's right in their back yard practically.

When we switch to a renewable alternative fuel at least we'll have some stability instead of always wondering when we're going to get nailed at the gas pump.

 

[Pablo]

Pros

Its around 6 dollars cheaper per gallon than 116 octane leaded fuel
In use on forced induction engines it behaves like 116 octane leaded fuel
It has a higher specific energy than gasoline
Challenges the oil oligopoly


As far as the debate on whether ethanol is good for America as a whole..

We pay x amount of fuel at the pump for gasoline but we pay even more to secure our energy interests world wide through taxes. Every week it seems we are held to the whims of opec or events in the middle east. Any weather disaster, war, or speech by some foreign dictator allows the oil companies an excuse to price gouge Americans at the pump.

Brazil is completely energy independent, having made the switch to ethanol years ago. They have vastly reduced pollution from huge reductions in hydrocarbon emissions and NOX which is what most people see as that brown haze in smoggy areas. They also have to answer to no one when it comes to their energy needs.
Imagine that... being able to laugh at some middle eastern A-hole threatening instability in his region, or at some South American communist taking control of all oil production in his country.
That would be a great day indeed when we could do that.

As production increases the price of production will likely fall as we improve our techniques and get into producing ethanol from different materials such as cellulosic ethanol. Then, virtually your own back yard can become an ethanol source.

 

[tom j]

I did for the price not MPG, Racegas is about $6-$8 per gallon compared to $2.50. As far as using alky injection I liked of having one less tunning variable and less of chance of something failing(pump,nozzle,controller, ect..)

 

[novaderrik]

the best mileage i've ever seen in my T was on a full tank of E85 on a 130 mile interstate jaunt. up to that point, the best mileage it ever saw was 17- but on that day- with the AC cranked and 2 other people in the car with me, and going 80 mph down the interstate- it got 24.
apparently, it works really well in steady state cruise mode..
usually i get 14mpg on E85, but if i limit it to a 50/50 mix with 87 octane, i get the same mileage as 93 octane, but at a cost that's less than 87 octane. and it just flat out feels faster and builds more boost faster than it does on 93 octane.
so, i'll keep using it and support our farmers and all the associated folks that work in the corn/ethanol industry in this area, and you can keep bitching about how much you have to pay for race gas. that's ok- that just means more E85 for me

 

[wordy1]

Best as I can tell, the highway milage may actually be improved upon if we learn how to fully optimize this stuff.. but no, I cannot see a situaion where city milage of E-85 will be greater than that of Gasoline.. The problem with the milage is that more E-85 is needed as it burns more slowly and has less BTU's.

The benefits of E-85 when properly utilized, is that it burns more slowly and allows the engine to operate cooler, more smoothly, and thus more efficiently. However, you do need more of this stuff to adapt it to motor designed to run on gasoline, about 25% more, from what I've read.

However, its benefits in octane, its inherent cooling effect through which more performance can be achieved, and its relatively easy compatibility with the right programming, makes it a viable option for all our cars not only to perform better at the track, but for daily driving as well. Many of the knock issues a lot of us worry about could be solved by running E85, or at least a mixture of it.

I had similiar reluctance to run toluene, but I cannot run the car now without it, the car just flat out performs better, and there are no knock issues, and not wanting to spend the money for race gas, and besides that its impossible to find around here.. The simple fact of the matter is that E-85 is easily accessible everywhere in IL. And in the midwest in general. And I'd rather be putting something into my car that is giving money to farmers than to the oil tycoons overseas, I would feel good about that.

Nobody mentioned that 93 octane is not available everywhere, when I go out of state, sometimes 91 is the highest I can find, and my car simply will not run right on 91.

The problem I have been reading about is that there are incosistencies with E-85 from batch to batch, similiar to the quality of unleaded gas in the 70's-80's. I'd imagine the inconsistencies between different brands of E85 will be the same, its still in inte infancy as a viable fuel alternative and unless it catches on soon, we may never rid ourselves on the dependence of foreign oil..

The points you guys say make sense, and I too am hoping that it will at least be available, and an option for those who are conscious of our environment. Automakers seem to be content with Hybrids at the moment, and based on the demand, they are selling, why?

Because the fuel economy is stellar and in turn use less gasoline, but definitely not 75% less than a E-85 vehicle (I say 75% because most gasoline is 10% ethanol anyways)

Also from what I've read, every car made since 1985, including ours, is compatible with E85.

As far as why we should be using it for reasons other than environmental and economic issues?

Well here goes.. E-85 should allow for less turbo lag, smoother throttle response, just overall MORE performance for everything we are looking for in our cars. ALKY is all well and good, but does little to help with daily driving, just at the track when its needed. Imagine running E-85 for daily use and having ALKY on top of that.. I am planning of a 50/50 mix of E85 and gasoline and ALKY in the spring and I truly I think my car will be transformed into one MEAN car when I am finsihed, and I am not giving up on this... I need more injector and have wanting to upgrade to ALKY anyways, and now seems like the perfect time

And if I am ever in a situation where I cannot find E-85, I am sure I can figure out a way to allow the ALKY to compensate, or adjust the fueling and timing using Eric's chip features.

About my only concern, is I am not 100% confident that E-85 is okay with my system, because I have a 1984 SS< and not sure what was built on it that is okay for E-85, since everything was changed over with the GN drivetrain swap, I'd imagine I'd be okay.

I already talked to Red Armstrong and he endorses E-85 for our cars and sees no harm in continuing to use his fuel pumps with it, and is acutally curious to know how well his pumps will perform with it given the diffrence in lubricity and viscosity. Although he admits I should uprade to a double pumper to increase my fueling capacity if I want to eventually convert to pure E85.

The review of a truck has nothing to do with our cars, as is stated, those cars are flexfuel, and not optimized for E85, at least not yet. A friend of mine with a FlexFuel Monte Carlo SS is getting about 5-10% less milage overall, not the 25% that the truck owner claims. Perhaps the truck was used differently than a car, um for hauling, city driving, etc. A larger vehicle will need more initial energy to get going and E-85 economy will certainly diminish.

And if that sounds counter-intuitive with our cars, it couldn't be more different, we are running forced induction and our motors like cool fuel and high octane, and who cares if we get less economy when we get on it? We will be getting much more power when we need it most. I am sure the same can be said for the truck you mentioned.

The bottom line is that more testing needs to be done, and more people need to be figuring out what the benefits of this fuel really is..

The combination of a 50/50 Gas E85 mix, will result in approx 100 octane, and I'm told that the cooling and cleaning effects of the E85 will in affect act like a continuous ALKY system for all forms of driving and that the motor will run smoother and last longer..

I seen a documentary on flexfuel vehicles, and whats really different is the fueling, and the sensors that are used to detect what the actual mixture of E85 and gasoline is.

Imagine the potential if we could apply a system like this to our cars, not only for racing but for daily driving, the issue of not being able to find a station (my BIGGEST CONCERN about E-85).

However, the show mentioned that the heads themselves are entirely different on flex fuel vehicles and that the valves are more durable to the stock ones, and that the motors (in general) are built much stronger. I can only assume that those of us who are building motors to get into the 500 HP range have already addressed these issues as to not worry about E-85 causing problems.

In general everyone should buy a flexfuel vehicle, they cost about the same, the motors are more durable, you can still run regular gas and get the same economy, and I am sure once the tuners out there figure out how to unlock the potential of this stuff, they will be sought after by performance enthusiasts, as our cars are now.

I hate to mention this here, but I wrote a letter to Ford requesting for them to build a flexfuel Mustang, I'd be buying if they had one, I love those cars and want to be running E-85.

Almost bought the new 2006 Monte SS when I heard about the Flexfuel version, just didn't like the looks, and the fact that its not RWD. If they would have built the Monte Carlo SS with RWD with a Supercharger and E-85 compatibility, I would have been the first to buy, I actually liked the styling of the 2000-2005 Montes, but FWD sucks!!

BTW< I did some searching, the world's 2 biggest automakers (not sure if anyone can confirm this, but it has to be true) Honda and Toyota, have a total of ZERO flexfuel cars, that should tell us all how long this stuff may last in the US. I say enjoy it while its an option, and hopefully it will at least be available in the next 5-10 years so I can use in my monte.. At least I know I can always switch back to gasoline if I need to. So its really not a big deal.

There is one major drawback to E-85 that no one has addressed, and that is our dependency on corn for other things, including many food products, especially high fructose corn syrup, not sure if any of you guys are checking the labels, but that stuff is in everything, and I am sure rising demand for E-85 will inherently cause the prices of other things to go up, but I doubt people are going to complain about paying 20 cents more for a 2-liter of pop if it costs .20 less to go to the store and go get it, assuming we can figure this stuff out, and how to efficiently use it.

 

[86SS86LS]

the best mileage i've ever seen in my T was on a full tank of E85 on a 130 mile interstate jaunt. up to that point, the best mileage it ever saw was 17- but on that day- with the AC cranked and 2 other people in the car with me, and going 80 mph down the interstate- it got 24.
apparently, it works really well in steady state cruise mode..
usually i get 14mpg on E85, but if i limit it to a 50/50 mix with 87 octane, i get the same mileage as 93 octane, but at a cost that's less than 87 octane. and it just flat out feels faster and builds more boost faster than it does on 93 octane.
so, i'll keep using it and support our farmers and all the associated folks that work in the corn/ethanol industry in this area, and you can keep bitching about how much you have to pay for race gas. that's ok- that just means more E85 for me

Just curious, are you running E85 on the stock fuel system?

 

[wordy1]

Why run this stuff without upping injectors, and properly tuning? Its like throwing water on a fire. The way it burns is completely different and needs to be taken into account, great that its been working out so well for you, but maybe a more detailed description of your set-up and what you've done to your car would help others know if its something to consider..

Others viewing this thread shouldn't think that they can just add any old amount of E-85 into their car without potential problems and knowing the potential risks, and maybe if we knew more about what you've done we can figure out how to use it on our own cars..

 

[Hot Air]

For the record:
1. E85 is 105 octane
2. It takes 30-35% more E85 to equal the energy (BTUs) in gasoline...not twice as much. Methanol requires approximately twice as much.
3. E85 contains approximately 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
4. Ethanol is not nearly as corrosive as methanol.
5. Alcohol (ethanol or methanol) will attack the paper or fabric in your non-SS filter element.
6. The ethanol in E85 will suck heat out of the air when it turns to vapor so it is a chemical intercooler (MORE boost anyone?)
7. E85 requires a very different air-to-fuel ratio and different timing to burn efficiently.
Conrad

 

[wordy1]

For the record:
1. E85 is 105 octane
2. It takes 30-35% more E85 to equal the energy (BTUs) in gasoline...not twice as much.
Conrad

Is 105 octane standardized like regular fuel, where did you find out that it take 30-35% more E85 to equal gasoline?, are you comparing it to 10% ethanol gas which is the norm where I live currently.

I was told from a couple reliable sources that its closer to 25% and wasn't trying to say that it requires twice as much fuel or higher...

 

[wordy1]

7. E85 requires a very different air-to-fuel ratio and different timing to burn efficiently.
Conrad

Whats the A/F ratio? And do we still want to tune for .780-.800 O2's?

 

[Hot Air]

Read the "E85 and FAST" post and the other E85 posts. They should help.
Conrad

 

[Pablo]

Whats the A/F ratio? And do we still want to tune for .780-.800 O2's?

I'm surprised people are still using stock o2 sensors for tuning despite the fact that they are so inaccurate.

wbo2s and regular o2s just measure lambda. Your numbers will be the same.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

You will find tons of posts about MPG and E85, some lose more than 15% and some are right on it, some need 30% or more at WOT and some don't. E85 usually is a wash $$ per gallon wise but even if it's close, it's still a step in the right direction and car companies will get more efficient at using it.

Wait until Venezuela and Iran take millions of barrels of oil off the market ( Iran's oil is actually drying up ), redo the gas mileage math then and watch the unemployment rate take a move to the north a couple of %. If Brazil can become energy independent, I believe the great engineers of the USA should get the chance to show us the way also, not being inhibited by big oil. Using E85 is not just about $ and pollution, it's a step towards getting off oil and allowing other renewable energy sources the platform to make the light of day. And the smell of E85 sure beats lead when you go out to dinner with the ladies.

Convert or keep buying leaded gas at $6 on up ( getting old ) and/or keep pulling into your garage with a 55 gallon drum starring at you.

 

[wordy1]

I'm surprised people are still using stock o2 sensors for tuning despite the fact that they are so inaccurate.

wbo2s and regular o2s just measure lambda. Your numbers will be the same.

What O2 sensor should I be using?

 

[wordy1]

E-85 has the potential to be the "savior" of our dependence on foreign oil.

And the performane we can achieve with this stuff could allow for some really powerful cars yet again.

 

[novaderrik]

Just curious, are you running E85 on the stock fuel system?

yup- all stock, with a stock replacement Wix fuel filter.
it might not be "optimized" for the stuff, but it definitely works better than any other pump gas. sure, it usually uses more E85 per mile, but the costs per mile come out about the same, and the fun factor definitely goes up. the only real downside is the shorter range per tankful- but that is solved by running it 50/50.
all the people that say it won't work probably have never tried it.

 

[wordy1]

Car has been running rich, and instead of having my chip reprogrammed, I said what the heck, and added approx. 10-15% of E85,, about 2 gals to a full tank.. Car runs, idles, and performs perfect, O2's at .790, and NO KNOCK @ 18 psi.. Would knock at 16 psi with 93 octane. Toluene fixed that before, and instead of adding it this time, I just replaced the same amount of toluene with E-85.

For those interested, it works almost as good as toluene it seems for octane boosting, and if your car is running a bit rich, it may be easier just to add some E-85 than to send out your chip to be reprogrammed. Worked like a charm for me.

Before adding the E85 I had already dropped my fuel 15%, and reduced the timing 2 degrees, and dropped the line level down to 41 psi.. Eric says that I should not be running this rich at these settings and that the chip would need to be re-calibrated especially with the air temp. being so cool. He refused to make me a chip for what I am planning on, a 50/50 mix, so I will be on my own for tuning... and am going to get a wideband O2 and powerlogger..

Before I add anymore E85, what fuel filter do I need to get? Or would I be okay with this one? I'd imagine its just the factory A/C Delco filter. Have been running toluene since I've purchased the car, and I have had no issues with the filter element.

 

[86SS86LS]

yup- all stock, with a stock replacement Wix fuel filter.
it might not be "optimized" for the stuff, but it definitely works better than any other pump gas. sure, it usually uses more E85 per mile, but the costs per mile come out about the same, and the fun factor definitely goes up. the only real downside is the shorter range per tankful- but that is solved by running it 50/50.
all the people that say it won't work probably have never tried it.

I just paid $3.37 for 91 octane while E85 is $2.10 in my town. I'm considering the same thing.