Debate on E85... why use it??

[Hot Air]

Rob,
Several members have indicated no major problems running E85 for several years now. I'm not so much worried about about the intake manifold as I am my Champion aluminum fuel rails and fuel pump/FPR. I am ready to upgrade fuel injectors, pump and FPR so I don't run out of fuel and just "go for it" and see what, if anything, fails long term.

Since E85 requires ~30% more volume, you need to look closely at the capability of your fuel pump and pump wiring. The pump will have to put out more pressure to move the additional volume of fuel through the supply and return lines. Unfortunately, fuel pumps don't work that way...as the pressure goes up, the volume goes down! If you have an excess of fuel pump capacity, you may be ok. You need to run some calculations to be sure. Be Careful!!

Did you see the Mar 08 issue of Car Craft? There is an article entitled, "Seven Cars: 9,565 Horsepower". Page 77 contains the following sentence (next to the last pararaph, the last sentence), "This ethanol (E85) blend was especially helpful for the supercharged and turbocharged engines because of E85's outstanding ability to pull heat out of a compressed charge."

All of the contestants ran E85!

Conrad

 

[vacuum 6]

Pros:
Releives our dependency on foriegn oil supplies.

Cons:
You must use about 180% the amount as you would with gasoline (LESS MPG)
Not very many pumps that sell this stuff nationwide.

E85 is NOT the answer to this country's fuel problems!!!!!!!!

Agree with all the above. I will be using it in the Buick come spring cuz of the octane rating and cooling effect. Maybe someday the price will come down. IMO - its not the answer to our fuel problem long-term but its a start...remember baby steps, no way we can get up and run on this one.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

The combination of future technologies is going to happen first. An E85 hybrid battery motor sounds more practical then ever, how about E85 and fuel cell or hydrogen hybrids in the future?? Car companies are finding ways to be more efficient with E85 so the MPG does not drop off. The stuff is about 5% more powerful then gas so just give them some time to really engineer around the stuff, they will do it.

New cars will be off oil in the near future by combining technologies, so the more people that use E85, the infrastructure will be there to move on beyond oil. And wait until switchgrass starts popping up on farms, corn will not be used for fuel long after that catches on.

 

[bsdlinux]

Conrad, I happen to agree with you. I think e85 is an excellent replacement for the 100 octane unleaded I am currently using. The only downside I can see is the possible problem with aluminum. The Hot Rod magazine article on e85 said ethanol will corrode naked aluminum. My concern would be with the intake manifold. Is cast aluminum considered naked? When I seen the post about 7 barrels of oil needed for 8 barrels of e85, it didn't sound right to me. I don't have any facts to support my 'opinion'. So I was intrested in the report to educate myself. I would love to fill up with e85 with the only fuel system changes being bigger injectors and a new chip.
Rob

In what context?? CARB or FI motors. I bet they were talking about carbs.
I haven't read the atricle myself.
Carbs have both aluminum and cadmium plated metals in them. Cadmium being the worst of the two. Most of the corrosion information always seems to in connection with CARBed motors. I haven't see any imperical evidence that FI systems are at "RISK" for corrosion type problem. I've run this stuff for a very long time now. I've had my fuel rail, injectors out looking for it. Guess what?? None yet. Also you've got to be kidding me on the intake question. Put some E-85 on your finger and see how long it lasts, much less in a engine at temp..LOL no worries there I assure you. If the METH injection guys aren't having corrsion issues in the intake, no way in hell the E-85 in going to do it. Ethanol is a VERY VERY distant cousin to Meth and has no where the corrosion properties of METH>

 

[bsdlinux]

And wait until switchgrass starts popping up on farms, corn will not be used for fuel long after that catches on.

Agreed. Someone has been studying

 

[Hot Air]

Wow! We are getting some GREAT discussions here.
Conrad

 

[Mac in SD]

I haven't tried it yet, but I don't understand why some of you guys are so hard-over against it.

From a turbo point of view, it makes all the sense in the world to try it if you can get it. Regardless of whether it's the answer to foriegn oil dependence or the balance of trade, it's 105 octane and as cheap as, or cheaper than, pump gasoline.

When I get done with all my home improvement manual labors, I'm going to tweak my MAFT and play with it. Kudos to all you guys working with it already.

 

[RobS]

Bsdlinux, I have no experience running e85. There are people such as yourself that run it and have no issues. That is good information. I am trying to gather information to make sure there are no issues with e85 and my fuel system. The questions I havn't seen answered is: when is the walbro 340 fuel pump maxed out when running straight e85, when is the stock fuel line too small for straight e85 and are the rear bumper fillers made of polyurethane? I am still looking for the website that said there is a servere reaction with ethanol and polyurethane. Maybe the Hotrod article was referring to carbed motors. It didn't say.

 

[RobS]

Cole-Parmer: Chemical Resistance Database
Is the website that suggested there is a comptability issue with polyurethane

 

[MrMNTTA]

The combination of future technologies is going to happen first. An E85 hybrid battery motor sounds more practical then ever, how about E85 and fuel cell or hydrogen hybrids in the future?? Car companies are finding ways to be more efficient with E85 so the MPG does not drop off. The stuff is about 5% more powerful then gas so just give them some time to really engineer around the stuff, they will do it.

New cars will be off oil in the near future by combining technologies, so the more people that use E85, the infrastructure will be there to move on beyond oil. And wait until switchgrass starts popping up on farms, corn will not be used for fuel long after that catches on.

Amen!

 

[MrMNTTA]

Bsdlinux, I have no experience running e85. There are people such as yourself that run it and have no issues. That is good information. I am trying to gather information to make sure there are no issues with e85 and my fuel system. The questions I havn't seen answered is: when is the walbro 340 fuel pump maxed out when running straight e85, when is the stock fuel line too small for straight e85 and are the rear bumper fillers made of polyurethane? I am still looking for the website that said there is a servere reaction with ethanol and polyurethane. Maybe the Hotrod article was referring to carbed motors. It didn't say.

As far as carbs go, it's necessary to change out the seals since the 'normal' seals will dry out. The seals should be changed to viton seals.

I'm unsure about the polyurethane issue.

 

[ronbuick]

Dr. you are right about the switchgrass and that kinda of stuff, which I beleive is called cellulosic, from what I understand that is the way to go
from the little research that I have done on Ethanol. Plus it produces a better quality product and the green house gases are way less then with the corn.

Ron

 

[MrMNTTA]

Dr. you are right about the switchgrass and that kinda of stuff, which I beleive is called cellulosic, from what I understand that is the way to go
from the little research that I have done on Ethanol. Plus it produces a better quality product and the green house gases are way less then with the corn.

Ron

Cellulosic is the way of the future, but until it becomes cost effective and energy efficient, it isn't viable. Technology will take us there eventually. My hope is that it can be happening on a large scale within 15 years.

I'm unclear on what you mean by "it (cellulosic compared to corn) produces a better quality product". What do you mean by that?

 

[bsdlinux]

Plus it produces a better quality product and the green house gases are way less then with the corn.

Ron

Which ones in particular??

 

[bsdlinux]

Cellulosic is the way of the future, but until it becomes cost effective and energy efficient, it isn't viable. Technology will take us there eventually. My hope is that it can be happening on a large scale within 15 years.

I'm unclear on what you mean by "it (cellulosic compared to corn) produces a better quality product". What do you mean by that?

All that has to be done is go ahead and use the one-step process for producing Ethanol , instead of the 5 step one they use now. Its already out their, however the collective asses of the oil companies will have none of that

 

[ronbuick]

Now I'm not in no way an engineer or expert, but I read a article on ethanol
form the Univ. Neb. Lincoln that the cellulosic eth. was a higher quality than that produced by corn and it also reduced green house gases much more than with the corn. That was from a report on the study of eth. from that schoo. I worked at a University years ago as a HVAC/R tech in Ariz. and I can tell you from working all over that campus and in different departments
that there is a lot of experimenting going on, a lot of our technology comes from our university's.

Ron

 

[bsdlinux]

Now I'm not in no way an engineer or expert, but I read a article on ethanol
form the Univ. Neb. Lincoln that the cellulosic eth. was a higher quality than that produced by corn and it also reduced green house gases much more than with the corn. That was from a report on the study of eth. from that schoo. I worked at a University years ago as a HVAC/R tech in Ariz. and I can tell you from working all over that campus and in different departments
that there is a lot of experimenting going on, a lot of our technology comes from our university's.

Ron

Well I'm a little confused, however it is a very confusing topic. Bottom line is that Ethanol is NOT a HC based fuel, so when you run E-85 you have very little HC and that only come from the gasoline that it is mixed with. My tailpipe is no longer black inside, more like grayish white.
So if one was to run E-98 or even E-100, no HCs would show up in the emissions ia good running car ( not burning oil, etc )

The thing that gets me about most "University" articles is that it seems its never an Apples to Apples comaparision. Each university has its own agenda or trying to dispell other articles or whatever..

ok I'm off the box...lol , next ;
Also when running the 93 I would get a little black soot in the morning from it coming out with the condensation, with E-85 just pure water...kinda cool.

Now when its comes to C02, there is where it gets sticky for Ethanol based fuels. Since you have to run more E-85 to go the same distance vs gasoline, you produce MORE C02..plain and simple. Any fuel based on carbon will produce C02 and Ethanol is no different. So whil Brazil is getting props for being all Ethanol, they are actually contributing more C02 to atmosphere than they would with gas. So anyway, I found some people actually believe that C02 from Ethanol is somehow different than C02 from gasoline. WTF?? The disinformation and lack of common sense astounds me at times....

So having said all that, this is why I asked what "greenhouse gases" they were talking about. Ethanol is an extremely clean fuel, the only major greenhouse gas it produces is C02. So maybe its possible that the cellulosic Ethanol has more BTUs available, thus reducing the amount of C02 simply from the fact you don't have use as much. At this point I'm not sure what they were referring to you know.

** EDIT ** I thought maybe I had seen something similar to what you posted about switchgrass in the past and I was able to drum up some info:
"cellulose ethanol shows a net energy content three times greater than grain ethanol and emits a low net level of greenhouse gases" I fairly sure that the reduced emmisons are more from the process itslef than from using it in an engine. Switchgrass is a better alternative there is no question. Farmers could easily grow switchgrass during off years where they are allowing acres of soil to rest due to the crop rotation.** EDIT **

Unlike gasoline Ethanol carries with it extra oxygen molecules, this why it burns so completly and clean and the car will produce water from tailpipes, even after being warmed up. In fact Ethanol is so clean that plug fouling is non-existent and so forth. This is exactly why you DON'T have to run special spark plugs to use it.

Plenty of evidence of drag racers getting alot more hours from the same engine setup using Ethanol, Methanol vs Gasoline, when they convert. Not to mention gobs more power. The cooling effect is unbelievable.

I was talking to a TR guy that is not on this board but has had TRs for years. With E-85 he was able to hotlap the car at the track and run consistant times back to back to back.
IC heatsoak was no match for the cooling effect of E-85 being directly injected above the intake valves.

Its a great fuel for us TB guys trust me....

 

[MrMNTTA]

All that has to be done is go ahead and use the one-step process for producing Ethanol , instead of the 5 step one they use now. Its already out their, however the collective asses of the oil companies will have none of that

Hmmm, from what I know, that isn't accurate. Cellulosic involves a "pre-treatment" step that involves treating the feedstock with acid to help break it down prior to processing.

Explain to me the "one-step" process, and how it produces a 'better product'. I'm still not quite with you.

 

[MrMNTTA]

Now I'm not in no way an engineer or expert, but I read a article on ethanol
form the Univ. Neb. Lincoln that the cellulosic eth. was a higher quality than that produced by corn and it also reduced green house gases much more than with the corn. That was from a report on the study of eth. from that schoo. I worked at a University years ago as a HVAC/R tech in Ariz. and I can tell you from working all over that campus and in different departments
that there is a lot of experimenting going on, a lot of our technology comes from our university's.

Ron

Again, please tell me how it produces 'a better product'. Alcohol is alcohol, no matter what the process is to produce it. If the proof of the final product is 199.0 proof or better, I am failing to see how one feedstock over another produces a superior end product. The final proof and quality has nothing to do with the feedstock.

 

[bsdlinux]

Hmmm, from what I know, that isn't accurate. Cellulosic involves a "pre-treatment" step that involves treating the feedstock with acid to help break it down prior to processing.

Explain to me the "one-step" process, and how it produces a 'better product'. I'm still not quite with you.

It doesn't produce a better product but will lower the cost of processing dramatically. That is the point