Debate on E85... why use it??

[bsdlinux]

Again, please tell me how it produces 'a better product'. Alcohol is alcohol, no matter what the process is to produce it. If the proof of the final product is 199.0 proof or better, I am failing to see how one feedstock over another produces a superior end product. The final proof and quality has nothing to do with the feedstock.

This was point I made in a few posts above about these articles and how they mince words. Your are right, Alcohol is Alcohol. Its the processing costs that get rolled into the "NET" energy gain or loss when using alcohol fuels... ie "green" fuels..

So if we can get rid of the 5 step process we use now, and go to a 2 or 1 step one.. the net gain of ethanol goes up, NOT the quality of the product as we already know.

The key with E-85 or any political issues is that we must read between the lines and use a little common sense. Unfortunately there are people that are getting roped in to believe that one type ethanol is better than the other or C02 produced by one type of carbon based fuel is somehow different than another

These universities all fight for funding for these projects. When money is involved its fairly obvious to me what could happen to some facts and how they are stated.

 

[MrMNTTA]

It doesn't produce a better product but will lower the cost of processing dramatically. That is the point

Okay, that was my point about product quality. Lowering processing cost is completely separate.

As far as lowering the cost of processing, that hasn't happened yet, but I hope it does. If that was the case right now, it would be happening. The cellulosic idea has been around for a long time, but oil was so cheap, it didn't make sense. I still think we're at least 10 years away from having an efficient cellulosic process. Not to mention the logistics of feedstock delivery to the plants. Case in point: Let's use switchgrass as an example. Please bare with me as these are "loose" numbers, but you'll get the point. In order to support a 30 to 40 million gallon per year cellulosic ethanol plant that is using switchgrass as it's feedstock you'd have to feed approximately 1 1/2 to 2 large round bails of switchgrass continuously per minute to sustain that production rate. Think of the massive storage and handling area and system you'd have to have to support that. Time will tell.

 

[MrMNTTA]

This was point I made in a few posts above about these articles and how they mince words. Your are right, Alcohol is Alcohol. Its the processing costs that get rolled into the "NET" energy gain or loss when using alcohol fuels... ie "green" fuels..

So if we can get rid of the 5 step process we use now, and go to a 2 or 1 step one.. the net gain of ethanol goes up, NOT the quality of the product as we already know.

The key with E-85 or any political issues is that we must read between the lines and use a little common sense. Unfortunately there are people that are getting roped in to believe that one type ethanol is better than the other or C02 produced by one type of carbon based fuel is somehow different than another

These universities all fight for funding for these projects. When money is involved its fairly obvious to me what could happen to some facts and how they are stated.

I agree, and a good example of that is the "Pimentel/Berkeley" study which is filled with numbers used from the 1950's, and not taking in to account any new technology that's yielded huge efficiency gains. This particular study even includes the use of diesel fuel in the tractors to plant and harvest the corn used for ethanol production. What a bunch of B.S.! What's the difference if the corn goes to the elevator, the Mississippi River to barge or to an ethanol plant?? As it stands right now, ethanol production from corn is a net energy 'winner'.

 

[MrMNTTA]

All that has to be done is go ahead and use the one-step process for producing Ethanol , instead of the 5 step one they use now. Its already out their, however the collective asses of the oil companies will have none of that

I think I've figured out what you were talking about by the "one-step" process. Are you talking about how Brazil produces their ethanol from sugar cane? Producing ethanol from sugar cane is much more efficient since it does eliminate some steps. Using corn for ethanol production requires a few steps that convert the starch into simple sugars. Obviously by using sugar cane, those steps are eliminated, making their process more efficient. The problem with that is sugar cane production isn't a very big industry in the USA.

 

[bsdlinux]

I think I've figured out what you were talking about by the "one-step" process. Are you talking about how Brazil produces their ethanol from sugar cane? Producing ethanol from sugar cane is much more efficient since it does eliminate some steps. Using corn for ethanol production requires a few steps that convert the starch into simple sugars. Obviously by using sugar cane, those steps are eliminated, making their process more efficient. The problem with that is sugar cane production isn't a very big industry in the USA.

I need to do some digging, but one step process uses only bacteria to breakdown the stock into alcohol. If I can find the link I'll post it. I don't remember Brazil being mentioned at all

**EDIT** Here is the link : University of Rochester Press Releases Using a particular bacterium ( thermocellum ) to breakdown a biomass. I've seen this process discussed in other university studies.

There is no doubt in my mind that the technology is out there. If we can get this "ONE" step process to be a viable solution, couple that with switchgrass or in this case wood chips, grass clippings, whatever.. we will no doubt be moving forward

 

[MrMNTTA]

I need to do some digging, but one step process uses only bacteria to breakdown the stock into alcohol. If I can find the link I'll post it. I don't remember Brazil being mentioned at all

**EDIT** Here is the link : University of Rochester Press Releases Using a particular bacterium ( thermocellum ) to breakdown a biomass. I've seen this process discussed in other university studies.

There is no doubt in my mind that the technology is out there. If we can get this "ONE" step process to be a viable solution, couple that with switchgrass or in this case wood chips, grass clippings, whatever.. we will no doubt be moving forward

Oh!! Is that the study about using algae as the feedstock? That is very interesting if that's what you're referring to!

 

[MrMNTTA]

**EDIT** Here is the link : University of Rochester Press Releases Using a particular bacterium ( thermocellum ) to breakdown a biomass.

That is an awesome article......thank you!

 

[Pablo]

IIRC the one step cellulosic bypasses treating the biomass with sulfuric acid and instead uses the genetically modified bacteria to do the conversion on its own.

didn't look at the article posted so if this is information in that article I apologize.