Dyno test results when injecting 100% methanol 50/50 water/meth mix 80/20 etc.

[Grumpy]

So who is actually RUNNING a 50/50 mix thats going fast in a BUICK ?? Never mind your cousin's best friends neighbors brothers SVO

 

[bison]

So who is actually RUNNING a 50/50 mix thats going fast in a BUICK ?? Never mind your cousin's best friends neighbors brothers SVO

You never know maybe I'm about to stumble on something here. Till then my best friends cousins uncles third cousin dropped .4 on his pro stock with a hidden water injection system.

 

[it's just a six]

I've got 2 engines I can test this theory on. Send me the turbo and I'll pre-inject water till I'm blue in the face. It has to be a turbo that I can run with the wastegate closed for accurate comparison. A 60-1 would be nice. I don't want to hot mine with a bunch of water though. I'll make back to back dyno pulls at whatever targets/timing you want up until I feel I'm at the edge. Based on the posts I'm reading here it seems as though some are saying pre injecting water will actually increase the size of the efficiency Islands on the compressor map. I'm saying it won't. So anyone who wants to send me their turbo or gift me $300 on paypal I'll run the test. Turbo will be run for all it's worth. I'll refund the $ if no damage to the compressor occurs.

We could donate money to the cause if anyone is really interested in doing this type of test.
I would donate some.
I seemed to remember reading that injecting (pre-turbo) water is harsher on the compressor wheel as opposed to injecting methanol into the compressor wheel.
Water weighs more?
Methanol, pretty much evaporates as soon as it hits the hot compressor wheel?

Compressor damage seems to be caused by ,nozzle improperly placed, futher upstream of the compressor, hitting the sides of the intake tubing, causing the fliud to puddle & not being atomized, nozzle dribbling fliud even after pump has stopped (need a check valve or elec solinoid.
Nozzle is supposed to be sprayed directly into the center of the compressor wheel.
Just info I have read that seems to make sense to me.

I would like to see testing pre-turbo injection of water & methanol comparisions.

Maybe we could buy one or two compressor wheels if they get damaged?

Devils own forums states that adding pre-turbo injection will add 1 to 2 psi of boost pressure w/out changing anything else.

I am in for donating, anyone else?

 

[bison]

I'm not looking for a donation. Just insurance. I'd be using an extrermely small jet with very high pressure.

 

[Robert Wilson]

I'm not looking for a donation. Just insurance. I'd be using an extrermely small jet with very high pressure.

I'll kick in 25 in the support of a little R&D. Anyone else?

 

[it's just a six]

OK, I was thinking you have extra turbos lying around & could use one of those.
So if there were enough donations for the testing it could cover any damage of your turbo, sorry for the suggestion.
I'll kick in $25.

 

[Ttype6]

what never seems to get discussed on these boards is what goes wrong with things like pre turbo inj.i have seen very expensive superchargers fail due to the coatings on the blades not being able to survive the inj.

This is one of the biggest fears people have with pre-turbo water injection. Use an air atomizing nozzle and this is a non issue.The spray gun you use to paint your car has an air atomizing nozzle. It's the only nozzle that can both produce small enough droplets and produce them at a high volume. You can't use the nozzles that the typical alky injection kit uses. You also don't need a high pressure pump,as an air atomizing nozzle can produce a fine spray at a larger volume with very little pressure. You simply use the pressurized air that the turbo produces.

 

[we4Mateo]

Very interesting. Thanks. Subscribed.

 

[Ttype6]

some are saying pre injecting water will actually increase the size of the efficiency Islands on the compressor map. I'm saying it won't.

Spraying water into the compressor of a turbo charger puts to use one of the most simple laws of thermal dynamics,but at least we know exactly what you're saying. I was unsuccessful at getting Julio to tell us exactly what he was trying to say. What ever the results,I'm guessing you would expect them to be the same on a turbo Buick,a turbo Wankle,or a turbo R2800 Pratt and Whitney or a turbo Briggs and Stratton.
I don't know if it increases the size of the island as much as it moves it.

 

[Ttype6]

So who is actually RUNNING a 50/50 mix thats going fast in a BUICK ?? Never mind your cousin's best friends neighbors brothers SVO

I don't know how many are,but I would think there are some. It's easy to run fast with a Buick with or without injecting a 50/50 mix just before the throttle body. You can run very fast with 93 octane gasoline.If you take that same motor and inject 50/50 before the throttle body,your motor will always be able to produce more power. If you inject 100% meth before the throttle body instead of the 50/50 mix,that same motor will always produce even more power. I understand that you're not asking a question,but stating a well known fact as if someone was trying to dispute this. Were you thinking this was the case.
I know this was the question that the thread starter asked,but I don't think anyone replied that 50/50 before the throttle body would out perform 100% meth before the throttle body.

 

[bison]

Spraying water into the compressor of a turbo charger puts to use one of the most simple laws of thermal dynamics,but at least we know exactly what you're saying. I was unsuccessful at getting Julio to tell us exactly what he was trying to say. What ever the results,I'm guessing you would expect them to be the same on a turbo Buick,a turbo Wankle,or a turbo R2800 Pratt and Whitney or a turbo Briggs and Stratton.
I don't know if it increases the size of the island as much as it moves it.

Maybe I'll be finding out soon. Even if it added 3lbs minute of airlfow by energy absorption at the inlet it will show power on the engines I'm talking about. One was dynoed with a 60-1 and a 6265. There was a thread I created about 2 months ago.The other is a more conservative engine with a lot less valve train and about .5 less CR and an off the shelf 212 cam. Either will be able to show the power of pre injection with no other changes since I'll run them with the wastegate wired closed as a preliminary then I'll add the water pre turbo and see what we get. My thoughts are that I will see a slight reduction in manifold boost pressure and no added power. I hope I'm wrong. Neither the alky or water injected will be used as an anti detonate here. The base fuel will be leaded fuel out of 5 gallon pails.

 

[charlief1]

Spraying water into the compressor of a turbo charger puts to use one of the most simple laws of thermal dynamics,but at least we know exactly what you're saying. I was unsuccessful at getting Julio to tell us exactly what he was trying to say. What ever the results,I'm guessing you would expect them to be the same on a turbo Buick,a turbo Wankle,or a turbo R2800 Pratt and Whitney or a turbo Briggs and Stratton.
I don't know if it increases the size of the island as much as it moves it.

I see that we've been reading some of the same info. Did you get it of speedtalk or Eng-tips forums? I've saved some of the info from both of them in PDF but they're so large I can't load them on the board.

 

[Grumpy]

I don't know how many are,but I would think there are some. It's easy to run fast with a Buick with or without injecting a 50/50 mix just before the throttle body. You can run very fast with 93 octane gasoline.If you take that same motor and inject 50/50 before the throttle body,your motor will always be able to produce more power. If you inject 100% meth before the throttle body instead of the 50/50 mix,that same motor will always produce even more power. I understand that you're not asking a question,but stating a well known fact as if someone was trying to dispute this. Were you thinking this was the case.
I know this was the question that the thread starter asked,but I don't think anyone replied that 50/50 before the throttle body would out perform 100% meth before the throttle body.

Easy to make a Buick run fast on just 93 ?? what do you consider fast ?? My own opinion of course. I think people are looking into this way to hard.. Most want a simple system that can play with pretty easy an have the car fly. Lots have always said the "what if's" BUT never have done anything themselves. I want to see race results NOT 100 pages of theories Old age thing .

 

[Razor]

Ive already done the pre-turbo thing with no "power" results.

Putting a water nozzle before the turbo makes the air denser and makes the turbo develop a few extra PSI. But does virtually nothing to drop temperatures significantly. You get temperature from compressing air.. Thats what creates heat. The rule of thumb 11 degree's per PSI still exists. Efficient compressors may make 9-11 DF, out of efficiency compressors will make 13-15DF. This is the way you can tell your "Out of Turbo" by looking at IAT and watching the temps go past the 11df per psi. Professional tuners watch the temp per psi to see if your in the "zone".

If you need a bigger turbo.. get a bigger turbo. Adding water to a smaller turbo may make it appear slightly larger, but when the turbo you have is correctly sized for what your trying to do.. you get nilch. nada.. zip. This water pre-turbo would be awesome on a maximum effort stock turbo.. where your trying to extract the very last bit from it. Then we're talking. But if you have a 750 HP turbo and your at 600 HP.. your wasting your time. You want more boost.. easy.. turn the boost up.

I have the data logs of running non-ic and "spraying pre-turbo". They climbed a lot faster than when running an IC. Last time I tried this I went from 25 GPH worth of nozzle IC to 35 GPH non-intercooled.. 2 15's in the pipe, and one 5 pre-turbo... temps rose way faster. I just happen to be "logging" IAT's and watching power. car also slowed down when I did this. Cuase thats how I role.

If I had an application, or ran a class that only allowed "water injection".. sure I would use it. If I had two identical engines.. one with and one without.. the one with water injection would have more power extracted. This in itself is why all the flag waving for water injection. If I listened to to all the water injection proponents, methanol would have never been part of cars.. we'd never see a 9 sec Buick on pump gas. They would all be stuck in the 12's or hydrolocking the motors trying to get into the 11's.

Now to be 100% clear. I dont argue water doesnt work. I dont argue you can gain performance with water. My arguement is that methanol works better.. especially in our applications.. and since its works better, why would I use water? And run the risk of blade errosion on the turbo, water puddling in the IC, one more thing to watch, etc.. for what.. to make my properly sized turbo appear larger??/ Fugedaboutit.

Test all you want.. I'm like Missouri.. "Show me" Funny how all the proponents to water injection.. dont have a "data" on their own vehicle. Or anything to show it. besides the "It works" .. Sure does.. but not as well as its alternative What good is extra boost "If" it doesnt make additional power?

 

[Grumpy]

If I listened to to all the water injection proponents, methanol would have never been part of cars.. we'd never see a 9 sec Buick on pump gas. They would all be stuck in the 12's or hydrolocking the motors trying to get into the 11's.

X2 !!! Thats the bottom line. Who would have ever thought about a 9/10 sec car on pump gas/alky !!!! NO turning back for me. Made Buicks from stockers to 9 sec ones a blast to drive on the street !!

 

[Ttype6]

I see that we've been reading some of the same info. Did you get it of speedtalk or Engforums? I've saved some of the info from both of them in PDF but they're so large I can't load them on the board.

You are one of two who introduced this to me a few years ago. After that I started googling. I think you also provided a link or two to click on.I think I also acknowledged you as being one of two who introduced this to the TB community. Do you believe that? No power gain on a Buick. 1,800 hp gain on a R2800.I guess it bears saying again.
It's an apples to oranges comparison. I wonder how water is able to lower the temps of a house fire?

 

[Grumpy]

I think I also acknowledged you as being one of two who introduced this to the TB community. Do you believe that? No power gain on a Buick. 1,800 hp gain on a R2800.I guess it bears saying again.
It's an apples to oranges comparison. I wonder how water is able to lower the temps of a house fire?

SOOOOO.. what have each of YOU done ??? woulda, coulda, shoulda's don't count.. real life results.

 

[Razor]

You said Fire..

Hehe

 

[bison]

Send me the insurance $ and I'll get real numbers.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Send me the insurance $ and I'll get real numbers.

Can't find your email on the new board set up. Give me your Paypal and I will send my portion.