engine machine shop questions

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Can a machine shop that's been around forever and certified for GMC, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Isuzu rebuild my motor? Or do I need to go with one of the well know Buick shops, which are further away and much more exspensive?
They/I are looking for a torque plate before we move forward on this project, is there any other suggestions or specialty pcs of hardware or equipment that they/I need?
They are very friendly and coopertive towards me and my many questions. Also they said that I can inspect or double check there sizes/clearances.
At this point the motor is cooked or dipped and inspected for cracks(it's good), looks like we will be going out another .010 to .040 over on the bores, then honed the final .002 with a torque plate attached.
Also, is it really neccary to go with the Billet center mains? I don't hear to many story's of driving over the crank...
This is a dailey driver with maybe 30/40 runs a year on it and the goal is 11.50, because I don't want a roll bar in it.
Any suggestions, comments would be appreciated.

Chuck

 

[jcj1407]

Just make sure they know what they are doing with turbo motors. These are way different than a short block. Believe me, I know. The first mechanic I used is great at small and big blocks, but he performed some of those tried and true small block tricks on my car without my knowledge, one of which being advancing my timing gear 4.5 degrees! Needless to say my headgaskets shredded. In my opinion if you are having machine work done all ready either do the caps or a girdle, just in case those 11.50's aren't enough.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I will be assembling the motor myself, I've assembled a few of my daily drivers motors before. One was a GMC 2.8 V-6, talk about a motor that couldn't get out of it's own way...
I hear you on being satisfied with 11.50 timeslip, but to tell you the truth at the current power level, it's more then enough to get in trouble with, on the street.
The factory center caps look pretty beefy, would be nice if there was some meat to add two more bolts to the main caps, but there's just no metal there.
I guess that I will call the machine shop tomorrow and see what brand of pistons that he can get, I want to go with the King bearings... I need to do some more digging on what pistons the motor likes. Any suggestions?
Thanks for the comments.


Chuck

 

[turbodave231]

I wouldn't worry about any competent machine shop as long as they pay attention to detail.

Billet main caps and girdles are not needed for a street engine.......if you can avoid detonation. I'm guessing you are not planning on align honing or align boring your block. If you install caps and/or girdle, this is a must, and it will add considerable expense.

If you future goals include going faster, better to do the caps/and or girdle now........and if you do that you might as well buy a forged crank, and K1 rods........as you can see this is a slippery slope!!

Diamond pistons are great pistons and I'd recommend Federal Mogul bearings over King.

Pay close attention to bearing clearances. The typical small block clearances won't work in Buick V6's. Clearances need to be much tighter.

 

[SouthernCal GN]

I had my crank and rods resized by a local shop here in Seattle, and that was only after I sat down with the shop guru and was convinced that he understood my requirements.

The end result- all was done to spec. The machinist took the time to check and recheck the measurements using published specifications, and kept the clearances good and tight.

 

[49-blues]

Morgantini in Exeter is a pretty good engine rebuiding shop in PA. Dont know if any are closer to you. my cousin had his own engine shop for over 5 years and used morgantini for all his machine work-known to get over 200,000 miles on all his motors.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I wouldn't worry about any competent machine shop as long as they pay attention to detail.

I'm guessing you are not planning on align honing or align boring your block.

Diamond pistons are great pistons and I'd recommend Federal Mogul bearings over King.

Pay close attention to bearing clearances. The typical small block clearances won't work in Buick V6's. Clearances need to be much tighter.

I don't understand what you mean by align honing or align boring the block? Can you please explain?
Are you talking about the main caps? Or are you talking about the bores?
The main caps where checked for size and concentricty to each other and they are good. The bores are borderline for the next size which is +.040 since they are at +.030 now. The shop and I are currently searching for a torque plate to borrow, buy or make. Then they will be bored to .002 under finish size and then the torque plate installed and the final .002 would be honed to size.

Diamond piston's is what Mike at full throttle sells, I've heard good things about them, Wisco are good to...
The block had FM bearings in it when I bought it the other week, maybe they where the wrong application(part #) bearing for the motor?
I like the claims on the King web site for the construction of there bearings. The wall is like .012 thick of soft bearing material vs. the standard .002 thick bearing material, which is very soft and it can "absorb" more foriegn mateials before the bearing will fail. I know that Bill Anderson's motors have them, and I've seen some of his motors take a real hammering at several tracks this past year, and keep on running.
But I will talk to the shop about the FM bearings, thanks for your comments!

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I had my crank and rods resized by a local shop here in Seattle, and that was only after I sat down with the shop guru and was convinced that he understood my requirements.

The end result- all was done to spec. The machinist took the time to check and recheck the measurements using published specifications, and kept the clearances good and tight.

Thanks for the response, did you use a torque plate? This comment helps make me feel better about using my local, certified machine shop.
The first thing that this shop did was pull up the spec's for the motor and it was right there .0008 - .0025 for the main clearance, Rick told me that they would never build it to .0008, they would shoot for .0015 - .002 clearance, I then told him that that's what I wanted to hear from him.

Chuck

 

[Sam Colalillo]

I replied to your email in regards to the BHJ deck plate I have for sale.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I replied to your email in regards to the BHJ deck plate I have for sale.

Sam,

You just made my day!
Thanks,

Chuck

 

[49-blues]

.040 is about the most you can go on the bore without overheating problems-hopefully it will clean up at .030 over.any larger i would have it sonically checked.also would not invest alot of money in that block if its already at .030. you can find a std block for about $300.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

.040 is about the most you can go on the bore without overheating problems-hopefully it will clean up at .030 over.any larger i would have it sonically checked.also would not invest alot of money in that block if its already at .030. you can find a std block for about $300.

I took a chance and bought the short block (engine ran, but had a knock) for $300. The bores are at .03 over now and the crank is .010/.010. I am hoping that the .030 bores are still ok, but the pistons are scuffed and I was advised to replace them. I just talked to the machine shop tonight and we need to get a hold of Mike(full throttlespeed) to find out the clearance needed for his Diamond pistons. (The bores are at 3.831 now at the biggest diameter before honning) The crank needs ground down another .010 (.020 under standard size). Also bought a torque plate, waiting for Sam to get my check, then that to arrive, so everything takes time. Pistons/rings and bearings need to be ordered once we know what we need. This is a spare motor that will go in service once it is completed, then next winter if funds allow, I will rebuild the current motor (and tranny) which has major blow by.

Chuck

 

[turbodave231]

When I mentioned line bore or line hone, I am referring to the main bearing saddles, not the cylinders. In order to install billet caps or a girdle, the main saddles must be rebored or re-honed. This is always the 1st step when machining any block. If your mains measure good, you need to concentrate on the bore sizing and then the deck surface.

I wouldn't worry about .040 oversize for a street engine. But a sonic check is still a good idea. You never know how thin the cylinder walls might be.

I'd sonic check the block before you buy any pistons. You might be too thin and just move on to another block......a stock bore block can be found for $300 or so.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

When I mentioned line bore or line hone, I am referring to the main bearing saddles, not the cylinders. In order to install billet caps or a girdle, the main saddles must be rebored or re-honed. This is always the 1st step when machining any block. If your mains measure good, you need to concentrate on the bore sizing and then the deck surface.

I wouldn't worry about .040 oversize for a street engine. But a sonic check is still a good idea. You never know how thin the cylinder walls might be.

I'd sonic check the block before you buy any pistons. You might be too thin and just move on to another block......a stock bore block can be found for $300 or so.

Dave,
The main bearing bores are all in spec. I talked to the shop foreman about going with billet mains, but after looking at the factory center caps. We think that factory caps will be good down to 11.50 in the 1/4. So now concetrating on the bores and pistons.
The pistons have some scuffing on the skirt(didn't look bad at all to me) and the shop recomends that I replace them(something about the teflon coating is damaged ?). The bores all mic at 3.831 at the biggest diameter, trying to get a hold of Mike at full throttle speed to see what clearance the diamond pistons need and what they mic at the skirts. The shop thinks that the bores will be fine at 3.831 plus a light hone to break the glaze off. I'm just saying, since I'm buying new pistons, I want to see what size they are after the light hone (waiting on the torque plate for this, it's on it's way now). Anyway I'm in no great rush because everthing takes time... but the track has it's first test and tune in 2 weeks... I'll be there with the tired motor, should break into the 11's with the M/T radials, I never could get the nittos to hook. Crossing my fingers on the tired tranny also, got a fresh one to go in, but I'll wait for the fresh motor and install them both at the same time.. sorry getting a little off topic.
Thanks for the explanation on the bore/honing details,

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Update

Thanks to Sam the torque plate is at the machine shop. It turns out that Diamond Piston's will do custom piston diameters for a additional fee, I will have to check with Mike at full throttle, his prices are better then going right to the company...
Now that the torque plate is there(machine shop), Monday they are going to see what it takes to clean the bores up. What I am trying to say is, what size the bores will clean up at with the honer. At this point we will see which way to go, Diamond factory rep told Rick that we need .004 clearance piston to bore. Also I will need to grind the rings to suit, so I will be asking at work for a ring grinder or I'll just buy one. Any commets or things that I should be aware of at this point in the rebuild? The crank will cost 150 to have it reground, in the back of my mind I keep thinking about the stroker kit, new crank, pistons, rings, connecting rods... but I think that might be overkill for this application.

Chuck

 

[86gn]

Thanks to Sam the torque plate is at the machine shop. It turns out that Diamond Piston's will do custom piston diameters for a additional fee, I will have to check with Mike at full throttle, his prices are better then going right to the company...
Now that the torque plate is there(machine shop), Monday they are going to see what it takes to clean the bores up. What I am trying to say is, what size the bores will clean up at with the honer. At this point we will see which way to go, Diamond factory rep told Rick that we need .004 clearance piston to bore. Also I will need to grind the rings to suit, so I will be asking at work for a ring grinder or I'll just buy one. Any commets or things that I should be aware of at this point in the rebuild? The crank will cost 150 to have it reground, in the back of my mind I keep thinking about the stroker kit, new crank, pistons, rings, connecting rods... but I think that might be overkill for this application.

Chuck

If it was me i would do the stroker kit in your other block when it come out or start with a different one. I just had a stroker done by DLS and it will be going in withen the next few weeks..Good luck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

86GN
I've heard from several members about DLS has a stroker kit also. But I don't know who DLS is, I will do a search. I'm trying to support our vendor's, not sure if DLS is a vendor or not...

Well after reading in a post that Mike (Nordy Racer) has a girdle in his motor and stock caps(Mike's car is street legal and in the 9's Anderson motor), I called Jason Cramer today and ordered a girdle,extra capcacty oil pan, and a new oil filter adapter (I had the "biggie" adapter untill I stopped using the oil cooler) for us guys not running a cooler(the extra capacity oil pan also helps with temps) so I can use the big oil filters again. The machine shop has not started on the block yet, maybe tomorrow I'll know what size I need to go with the pistons.

Chuck

 

[Sam Colalillo]

DLS is a supporting vendor of this board. He is responsible for several of the faster engines in the Buick community.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

DLS is a supporting vendor of this board. He is responsible for several of the faster engines in the Buick community.

Thanks Sam!

I'm looking for a link to his website.. or a phone #, I'm sure that I'll find it here..

Chuck

 

[ijames]

Chuck, DLS is Dan Strezo, goes by V6gofast here, one of the top name Buick engine builders in the country. See http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/turbo-lounge/242160-dls-engines-new-website.html for his new website.