engine machine shop questions

[S2V6RACER]

I don't know who DLS is, I will do a search.

Here is a example of one of Dan's engines setting a record not even turned up yet.

YouTube - TSO Qualify #1


I am very happy with his work, he will not steer you wrong.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

First off thanks Carl and Ted for the reply's. Ted that video is something, that's a real nice car.
I talked to Dan on the phone today, real nice down to earth guy. He told me that the stock crank is the weak link in the bottom end, in his opinion. He also said that he would go for the stroker if he where me, because the cost will be roughly the same as a after market std stroke crank. His kit comes with everything ready to bolt in, even the bearings. He also recomends FM and or Clevitte. He's not a big fan of the girdle but likes the crank and the caps to be replaced when redoing the bottom end for strength.
I don't know where I've been that I didn't know who Dan was, but now I do, thanks for the reference to him.
Guys thanks for the commets, I will keep this thread updated as I move foward on the build. I've got to keep reminding myself that I only want a 11.50 motor....

Chuck

 

[Buicksx2]

Ted,

Thanks for making my camera work look so good at Cecil

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Update

Wow, finally got the call from the machine shop. The bores where 3.831 and the diamond spec calls for .004 clearance, so the shop honed the block out to 3.834 and 2 of the bores did not clean up 100%.
So now they are waiting on me to get them new pistons .040 over, I just checked with fullthrottlespeed and he doesn't even sell the stroker kit now . I wonder what happened...
I came home today thinking that I would order the stroker kit @ .04 over and be done with it. Another club member said that he cancelled his stroker kit order after waiting for it for 4 months.
Ok, one more thing, I ran the car at Cecil 3 weeks ago and now my best time is 11.74 which is almost at my goal of 11.5 ; The M/T tires did not spin comming out of the hole, it was a great feeling! Pretty sure that with some tweaking of the timing/fuel/alky, I will reach my goal sooner then what I thought. So now I'm trying to decide my next move.... go conservative on the build of the new motor, maybe stay with the stock crank after all and diamond pistons/rings and call it a day?
Or look around, DLS can do a stroker kit, a good bit more $$ then what I was planning on spending though...... geez, what to do?

Chuck

 

[Sleeper-6]

Chuck,

I believe DLS does not use the CAT crank in their stroker kit (seems they are getting real hard to get these days) so I would assume that you can still a stroker kit from them if you decide to go that way. It's always cheaper to build a strong bottom end once than to hurt a weaker one and have to rebuild it again a second time.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Chuck,

I believe DLS does not use the CAT crank in their stroker kit (seems they are getting real hard to get these days) so I would assume that you can still a stroker kit from them if you decide to go that way. It's always cheaper to build a strong bottom end once than to hurt a weaker one and have to rebuild it again a second time.

Charles,

I did not know what type of crank the stroker kit had, not bad mouthing fullthrottlespeed, I sure that it is a supplier problem that Mike is having and that's why he dropped the package deal...
I know what you are saying about cheaper to do it once, I believe that the rjc girdle will help that, don't here of the crank breaking to often, but there are some threads on it... so it does happen. Hoping for some good sugestions..

Chuck

 

[Sleeper-6]

I should clarify that, sorry. Not saying anything bad about Full Throttle, The cranks supply issue is beyond their control. What I was trying to say is that the CAT cranks that several of the vendors use in their kits have become very hard to get with no indication of when they will be available again. I believe the DLS kit does not use the CAT crank therefore should still be available if you decide to go that route.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Update

Well after shopping around and asking around, I ordered the last of my parts today. Going to stay with the stock crank, .02/.02 grind, King bearings throughout, Diamond .04 piston/rings, arp rod bolts. RJC girdle, comes with arp main bolts. RJC extra capcity oil pan.
I kind of put this on a fast tract because my tranny gave up the ghost Sunday. The spare built tranny is ready to go in, but I'm sending the torque converter back to Precision to have inspected cleaned out, so I don't get that stuff in my fresh tranny. Thanks for all the help, I'll keep the thread up to date as needed.

Chuck

 

[49-blues]

Remember to clean or change the tranny cooler if you re using one.

 

[fc227]

Also clean/flush the engine oil cooler. If you have not already.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Remember to clean or change the tranny cooler if you re using one.

I talked to Chris at CKperformance, ended up flushing my tranny coolers, leaving the TC upside down on a 5 gal bucket overnight. The next day I stirred the 5 gal bucket with a magnet and it came out clean. So I filled it back up with fresh fluid, put it in the built tranny and buttoned it all back up in the car. So my turbo withdrawl symtoms have subsided! Back on the road.
Still waiting on my pistons to come in, dropped off the girdle and bearings at the machine shop today...
FC227,
I don't run a oil cooler for the motor, to risky for foriegn material getting in there. I run a turbo saver from Cotton's and call it a day.

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Diamond Pistons are at the mach shop

Well the .04 pistons and ring set are at the machine shop. I have not decided if I want to file the rings in or let them do it, I need to call someone and get a clarification on the gap size of each ring.
So I want the girdle installed 1st, then the center crank bores lined honed, then the torque plate attached and the bores honed to finish size. Which is .004 over the skirt size (1.25" and 90 deg below the wrist pin).
Am I forgetting anything? Should I do the filing on the rings and if so what tool do I need to buy? Or would I do them by hand? I am a machinist(PA Certified Journeymen) so I'm not afraid of holding sizes/tolerances.

Chuck

 

[Sleeper-6]

I believe I have read about people doing the machine work on their main bearing bores with the torque plates attached to load the block as if the heads were attached. Not sure if this is common practice or not, but it makes sense to me.

 

[ronbuick]

When you are done with your motor, will you be selling the torque plate??
if so I will need one for my machinist also, to use on my motor as well, let me know, thanks.

Ron

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

When you are done with your motor, will you be selling the torque plate??
if so I will need one for my machinist also, to use on my motor as well, let me know, thanks.

Ron

Hey Ron,

Sorry my machine shop bought it off me.

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I believe I have read about people doing the machine work on their main bearing bores with the torque plates attached to load the block as if the heads were attached. Not sure if this is common practice or not, but it makes sense to me.

Well if you are getting a girdle, that has to be attached. When they do the final .002 hone to the piston bores, the torque plate should be attached if you have one. Also the Total Seal Rings that I got from Mike at Fullthrottlespeed, call for a special finish for the rings to seat properly.

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I called the shop on the progress of the Buick motor, it is supposed to be done this week... The old motor is still holding up and running strong, still has blow by though. I may not install the fresh motor untill the fall, unless the old motor let's go before then... which I hope not. I guess I need to decide on the valve train/cam/heads soon. Just when the credit card is sitting with out a balance on it too.... any reason not to inspect exsisting (less then 2k miles) lifters, push rods, cam and heads. Drop in fresh springs,transfer them over to the new motor? I'm kinda of curious how much I will gain in the 1/4 with the fresh bottom end and all the same extra's.

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Update

Machine shop, called and asked for my flex plate and harmonic balancer so they can balance the rotating assembly. The engine did need line honed with the girdle installed.
This has taken far to long, but I should have the motor this week.... like I haven't said that before...

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Finally got the motor home on 12-26, I had some time and looked over the situation today. The crank is in and torqued down, the girdle is on and "The Good Stuff" was used to seal the block/girdle split, the rear seal is in. The rings are on the pistons and where filed in to size, but not installed in the block. The block was line honed after the girdle was installed, and the cylinder bores where finish honed with the torque plate on. Then the rotating assemble was balanced. This is how I picked it up from the machine shop. $1656 for this work.
I noticed that the crank counter balance wieghts still have the casting marks on it and that the drilled holes in the counterbalances where not deburred. Also at the one corner of the girdle I don't see any "good stuff" oozing out from it. Even though it is torqued down and the rear seal is installed, I'm thinking of taking the crank back out and cleaning up the crank counter ballance casting. I already deburred the holes in the counterweights.....
I don't want to chance that girdle leaking so that has to come off, might as well clean up the crank while it back out right?

Chuck

 

[turbofabricator]

Finally got the motor home on 12-26, I had some time and looked over the situation today. The crank is in and torqued down, the girdle is on and "The Good Stuff" was used to seal the block/girdle split, the rear seal is in. The rings are on the pistons and where filed in to size, but not installed in the block. The block was line honed after the girdle was installed, and the cylinder bores where finish honed with the torque plate on. Then the rotating assemble was balanced. This is how I picked it up from the machine shop. $1656 for this work.
I noticed that the crank counter balance wieghts still have the casting marks on it and that the drilled holes in the counterbalances where not deburred. Also at the one corner of the girdle I don't see any "good stuff" oozing out from it. Even though it is torqued down and the rear seal is installed, I'm thinking of taking the crank back out and cleaning up the crank counter ballance casting. I already deburred the holes in the counterweights.....
I don't want to chance that girdle leaking so that has to come off, might as well clean up the crank while it back out right?

Chuck

Anytime you remove material from a crankshaft, you will throw the balance job off. They only remove a very small amount of material to balance a crank. Even just a simple de-burr on a drilled balance hole will possibly throw the new balance job off. There is no gain in deburring a balance hole. (I know.....it just "seems" like the right thing to do) If you only removed a .016" x 45* chamfer, it will alter the balance job, but probably not enough to cause a big concern (i.e. no need for re-balance, in my opinion). The other concern is grinding/de-burring on a crankshaft when it is installed.
To check the seal on the girdle, take a .002" feeler gauge and try to slip it between the girdle and block. Don;t push hard, though, as a .002" feeler gauge is like a knife, and can cut through the silicone. Squeeze-out is the only visual way to detirmine if there is adaquate sealant used, but just becasue there isn't any squeeze-out, doesn't mean there isn't an adaquate amount applied.
Also, check the oil pump pick-up tube location. I have found that the RJC spacer doesn't place the pick-up close enough to the bottom of the pan. Measure carefully, and shoot for 1/4" to 3/8" (3/8" at the very MAX!) Use the RJC crank scraper, too. Verify that it clears the rotating crank/rods.
Spend alot of time on your timing cover/oil pump. It'll pay dividends in oil pressure. I shoot for .0005"- .0015" pump gear thrust clearance. (that's a HALF a thousandths, or 5 ten thousandths, or 50 millionths ) Buy a set of pump "shims" (gaskets) from TA Performance to get the pump clearance that tight. It takes a LONG time to set a timing cover up.
One more thing, be SURE to wipe the bottom of your RJC deep pan with Scotch-Brite and brake clean. I found the cadmium plating to be flaking off. Easy to clean up, but DON'T skip this step, and DON'T breathe the dust!!!! Wear a dust mask at a minimum. And again, check the pick-up to pan clearance. I ended up fabbing a new pick-up tube on a 274" StageI, with RJC girdle, and deep pan. It was about 7/8" form the bottom of the pan when bolted up out of the box. The RJC pick-up spacer also needed ALOT of grinding to fit around the girdle. There is alot of tolerance in stack-up with so many aftermarket parts. Just check EVERYTHING!...........TWICE!