engine machine shop questions

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Thanks Ken for the information.
Yea, the balance holes where deburred with real fine emory, not even a .03 chamfer, just took the sharp edge off. I'll let the crank alone at this point since it is already balanced.
I verified that the "right stuff" is in the questionable area, visually I can see it on the inside of the block/girdle in that corner area.
The girdle is already ground for clearance for the oil pick-up extension, (just did that before reading your reply). I would have ground into the mounting hole of the extension, if I would have groung the clearance in that(oil pick-up extension) instead of grinding the girdle. I tried to catch all the grinding dirt with oil soaked rags but some still got away. I called the machine shop and told them that I am pretty sure that I need to take the crank back out to clean it good, not to mention the block. I was surprised when they told me to use brake cleaner and air to clean up the mess.
I bought the extra capicity oil pan from Jason, but I'm having second thoughts on using it, I guess my main concern is the pan flaking and is there really a need for it....
I have the crank scaper, after the connecting rods are installed I will install the scraper and check for clearance with rotation of the crank.
Thanks again for your advice and guidance.

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I talked to Jason today from RJC, and I need to take the girdle nuts off, the machine shop has it installed with both washers under the nut.... hard to explain unless you have one. I should have taken all the metal off the extension even if it broke through the mounting hole, at least I wouldn't have to pull the crank back out. But the crank must come out and everything must get cleaned real good, should not cost me to much time. (I would be a fool not to do it)
He has not had any issues with the extra capacity oil pan flaking, so at this point I don't have a good reason not to use it. If I would have thought of it I would have asked him how much ground clearance the car would lose with it installed. Oh one more thing, Jason insisted that I call him if I have any questions at all with the girdle installation, he wants to make sure that I get it installed properly. Thanks Jason!

Chuck

 

[turbofabricator]

Yes, call Jason if you have ANY issues. The flaking may not be a typical problem. I noticed that it was only in the sump area of the pan. It looked like the pan had been installed upside down in the plating tank, and there was a pocket of air that caused the problem. (must of had a drain plug in, or the air would have been expelled) It wasn't a "problem". It was just something that NEEDED to be cleaned. Not an issue, because EVERYTHING must be cleaned and re-cleaned prior to assembly. I just wiped the sump out with Scotch-Brite and brake clean, comressed air and Presto.......good to go! I too had to grind the extension into a mounting bolt hole. No big deal. All of the issues I had with the girdle/pan/extennsion were just typical of most aftermarket things, and I didn't even feel a call to Jason was warrented. Just posted the issues, so you (and everyone else) will double check their set-up so that they don't have a problem. I have used a few RJC girdles, and will still continue to do so. Nice piece. I was, in no way, trying to bad mouth RJC. Just trying to give a heads up on things to verify, for those people not building engines all the time. (experienced builders would already check this stuff.) Good luck with your build.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Ken,

I completly understand what you are saying, about not bad mouthing Jason, I just called him because I had questions.
I pulled the crank back out today and cleaned everything real good, harborfreight has a 50pk of rags for like $10, so I got 2 packs.... Today was my first exsperience with "the right stuff", no way the girdle should leak using that stuff. It also say that you can use that where RTV Sealant is used, so I may have went out on a limb, but that's what I also used for the 2pc rear seal, down the groove in the cap and all around block/cap area. I got the idea after looking closely at the pictures on RJC web site, plus I already had it out and ready to go for the girdle.....
The machine shop had 80/90 wieght oil in the bearings, I used a motor assembly lube that I had from another build a while back, I forgot how sticky that assembly lube is....
Tomorrow I should be able to get the piston/rings installed in the block, I'm using ARP hardware on the mains, rods and studs/nuts for the heads. I need to buy a ring compressor (they are not very exspensive at Advanced Auto) and order some Felpro gaskets while I'm there, I already bought the intake kit so I need the head and front cover gasket/front seal. Time sure does fly by while wrenching....thanks again for the tips, I always use them. By the way I was not able to find the oil pump shim kit on ta performace web site, I will have to call them.

Chuck

 

[turbofabricator]

Chuck,
Be very careful with those (or any other brand) of rags. They will leave a HUGE amount of lint if you wipe the inside of the block with them. Look closely and you will see a TON of it. Basically, don't wipe any cast surface with rags. Use brake clean/laquer thinner and compressed air.
If you need to buy a ring compressor, be SURE to buy a wrinkle band compressor. They reduce the drag on the rings when installing, and won't slip into the bore when knocking the piston in. The std. ring compressors tend to slip into the bore and make installing pistons a PAIN!
Install the rings and pistons DRY. Wipe a coat of ATF (trans fluid) in the bore, and then slide the piston in. This will accelerate the ring seating. By using copious amounts of oil or assembly lube on the cylinder wall, pistons, and rings, the break-in takes a long time. De-burr the piston rings with a stone. (only the ring gap area, after file fitting them.)

Have FUN!

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Pistons/connecting rods are in and torqued to 40 ft/lbs. The instructions with the rings said to use something special or WD-40 as the lube on the cylinder walls. The motor turns over a little stiffer now with the crankshaft socket then it did before the pistons where in :wink: . I had to file the crank scraper a little bit to get it to mount, then I checked the oil pick-up extension and it needs a small amount of metal ground off of it for clearance. I noticed today that I need to get the (4) dowel pins for the block deck, I will ask the machine shop if they have any laying around.
As far as my cam goes, I just put my 208/208 Erson flat tappet in my current motor less then a year ago, along with new lifters/port/polished heads. I'm thinking that since it is already broke in, that as long as I don't shuffle the lifters around, I should be able to just install them in this fresh motor and the cam will already be broke in ... greatly reducing my chance of the cam going flat on the initial start up and break in of the fresh motor. I plan on running the zddp with my oil changes..... I've been ok with the old school cams for the last 30 yrs in my Buick Turbo's, not convinced that I need a roller cam. (Flame suit is on, so have at it). I also would like to see what times I get with the fresh motor and the old combo PTE-44 turbo, 208/208 cam. I do have a fresh TE-62 turbo on the shelf, that will probably get bolted up after I get tired of the PTE-44. The 44 will be hard to give up for the street (instant boost).

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I got problems.... I installed the piston's per the #'s the machine shop had on them 1-6, and put the stamped "F" on top the pistons towards the front of the motor. I must not have been thinking, just doing the assembly, F to the front and the right piston # in the right bore. And now the valve reliefs on the top of the pistons are in both locations. I'm pretty sure that the valve reliefs should go toward the center of the motor, that's where the valves are and because the spark plug hole is toward the outside of the heads. Only #3 and #4 piston are in that orientation, the other 4 pistons are backwards.... Which means that the machine shop will get a call tomorrow, I don't know if I can just switch #1 with #2 and the same with #5 and #6 or not... I'm concerned with the bore sizes and the balanced rotating assembly. All my mic's are at work, so I can't check the bores untill tomorrow. I feel stupid posting that this happened, but also I'm not hiding from my mistakes, that's how I learn...

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Machine shop supervisor just called me, (8pm on a Saturday) and was surprised when I told him the situation that I found myself in. He told me that the fix was to take the piston only, (not the connecting rod) and switch them out. The pistons are with in 1 gram to each other and the bores are within .0002 (two tenthousands of a inch) in diameter to each other so the size and weight is not a problem. The connecting rods where converted to have the bushing installed and the wrist pin is now a floater, so the swap is just a matter of taking the c-clip out, slide the wrist pin out and make the swap. He made it very clear to me though that the connecting rods must stay put and only the pistons can be swapped. The drivers side connecting rods all go in one direction and the passengers side go the opposite direction, which is the way that they are now... I can either do this work myself or take the engine back to the shop and let them do it. (I'm thinking by the time I load it up and take it back, then wait a few days and go pick it back up, I could have had it done a few times myself).

Chuck

 

[turbofabricator]

If you are patient, you can remove the Spiral-locks and re-use them. They are not a quick deal to do, if you have never done them before. Most guys cuss and swear at the clips when installing them/removing them. Be patient, and things will go OK. Use a small screwdriver or sharp scribe to roll the locks out. This will help: Google Image Result for http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/2/4910460258.jpg

 

[Sam Colalillo]

Today was my first exsperience with "the right stuff", no way the girdle should leak using that stuff. It also say that you can use that where RTV Sealant is used, so I may have went out on a limb, but that's what I also used for the 2pc rear seal, down the groove in the cap and all around block/cap area.

Chuck

I have also done this in the past with success.

Pistons/connecting rods are in and torqued to 40 ft/lbs.

As far as my cam goes, I just put my 208/208 Erson flat tappet in my current motor less then a year ago, along with new lifters/port/polished heads. I'm thinking that since it is already broke in, that as long as I don't shuffle the lifters around, I should be able to just install them in this fresh motor and the cam will already be broke in
Chuck

As my engines have got faster and faster, I have got into the habit of measuring rod bolt stretch rather than tongue. Proper torque varies depending on what lubricant is used on the bolts. Proper bolt stretch is the true value you are after for perfect installation. What rods are you using in this engine?

In regards tot the cam and lifters. I have done this several times on small block Chevy’s. The plan has not failed me yet. I agree you must get each lifter back into it designated location.

I feel stupid posting that this happened, but also I'm not hiding from my mistakes, that's how I learn...

Chuck

In my opinion it takes a responsible person to admit when they have made a mistake.

Machine shop supervisor just called me, (8pm on a Saturday) and was surprised when I told him the situation that I found myself in. He told me that the fix was to take the piston only, (not the connecting rod) and switch them out.

The connecting rods where converted to have the bushing installed and the wrist pin is now a floater, so the swap is just a matter of taking the c-clip out, slide the wrist pin out and make the swap. He made it very clear to me though that the connecting rods must stay put and only the pistons can be swapped.


Chuck

Can you post a picture from the bottom of the block? I just want to make surethe rods are installed correctly.

Have you ever messed with spiral lock pistons before, if you have not have the machine shop swith these pistons out for you. The results of an improperly installed piston can be devistating.


Intersting build by the way. Can't wait to see the results.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

Connecting rods are reworked stock, here is the picture that you asked for. Thanks for the positive comments, I hope things go better sooner then later.

Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

If you are patient, you can remove the Spiral-locks and re-use them. They are not a quick deal to do, if you have never done them before. Most guys cuss and swear at the clips when installing them/removing them. Be patient, and things will go OK. Use a small screwdriver or sharp scribe to roll the locks out. This will help: Google Image Result for http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/2/4910460258.jpg

Ken,

I've done lot's of dirt bikes with the spiral locks but they came back to the center (so it was easy to grab on to them with the needle nose). Like Sam said, I would need to be very sure that they get reinstalled correctly or things will go bad quick. I guess that if I am succesful at getting the one side out that's all that I need. Then when I reinstall it, just be sure that it "clicks" into it's seated position.

Chuck

 

[Sam Colalillo]

Can’t really tell from that picture. I just wanted to make sure the off center rods were installed correctly.

On the torque for the rod bolts. I assume you are using ARP 123-6001 cap screws. These bolts come with moly lubricant. When using this moly lubricant I torque the bolts to 50 ft lbs, loosen and torque to 50 foot pound, and then for a third and final time loosen and torque to 50 foot pound.

I have never measured stretch when using stock rods but the proper stretch is .0060 to .0067. I have always used the three step torque process described above.

Good to hear you have experience with spiral lock rings. I would do it myself then. You will know it is right and have no one to blame but yourself if something goes wrong.

On affecting the balance, at this level I think you will be fine. It is allot closer than it came from the factory.

Best of luck to you.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

On the torque for the rod bolts. I assume you are using ARP 123-6001 cap screws. These bolts come with moly lubricant. When using this moly lubricant I torque the bolts to 50 ft lbs, loosen and torque to 50 foot pound, and then for a third and final time loosen and torque to 50 foot pound.

Sam,

That is the rod bolts that I am using, I will turn the torque value up to 50#'s using Moly and torque them 3 times like you descriped.
Thanks,


Chuck

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

The Good:
All went well yesterday and today, the 4 pistons where switched, the spiral locks went pretty easy, and the piston install gave me some trouble like before. The block for the pick-up tube extension is all fitted in, the screen will be a tight 3/8" from the bottom of the pan.
The Bad:
I should not have told the machine shop to deck the block.............. because, the highest piston actually goes up to .02 above the deck(calibrated eye and scale), but not all the way around, just the one side and a few where exactly flush with the deck or a hair below. I hope this is not a huge problem, I'm thinking that with a thick head gasket it will be ok, I hope. I will bring my depth mic's home tomorrow to check it out and see what you guys say about this, I need to remember that my 3.800 stk bore is now 3.840 diameter.
Thanks again!

Chuck

 

[turbofabricator]

The Good:
All went well yesterday and today, the 4 pistons where switched, the spiral locks went pretty easy, and the piston install gave me some trouble like before. The block for the pick-up tube extension is all fitted in, the screen will be a tight 3/8" from the bottom of the pan.
The Bad:
I should not have told the machine shop to deck the block.............. because, the highest piston actually goes up to .02 above the deck(calibrated eye and scale), but not all the way around, just the one side and a few where exactly flush with the deck or a hair below. I hope this is not a huge problem, I'm thinking that with a thick head gasket it will be ok, I hope. I will bring my depth mic's home tomorrow to check it out and see what you guys say about this, I need to remember that my 3.800 stk bore is now 3.840 diameter.
Thanks again!

Chuck

WOW!!!! That is questionable machine work!!!!! All the pistons should be even! If they are sticking out of the bores, the machine shop milled the crap outta the block!!!! (providng the pistons were off the shelf items, and not custom ordered. If they were custom ordered, then they screwed up on the pin highth dimension.) You can remove the pistons, and have them cut down on a lathe or in a mill with a piston vise. This will throw off the balance, a little though. Take the short block back to the machine shop and ask them what they did!!!! Have them measure the deck highth. They seem to have some issues with their work, seeing they hung the pistons wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, but it's how you deal with them, that separates the men from the boys. Zero deck is OK, but (-) negative deck highth is not good. (unless you are running a 340 Mopar ) You can custom order Cometics in just about any thickness, too. That is the beauty of using an experienced V6 machinist. They know what to do. If there is uneven piston protrusion, it would appear that the block was NOT squared, when they decked it. You will probably have intake manifold alignment issues, too. Good luck!

 

[Jerryl]

WOW!!!! ............... That is the beauty of using an experienced V6 machinist. They know what to do. If there is uneven piston protrusion, it would appear that the block was NOT squared, when they decked it. You will probably have intake manifold alignment issues, too. Good luck!

Agree with what it is Turbofabricator said;
I would watch for lifter preload and pushrod length variation issues, intake port alignment, intake sealing/gap, uneven compression, etc.

Also, make DARN sure, you verify the head locating pin install heights!
If the deck is not square and parallel including all the material they may have removed, the pins may "bottom out", and prevent the head from seating on the gasket/block.

Good luck, again.

 

[84BuickGNYorkPA]

I called the machine shop after work today, the supervisor stopped by my garage tonight on his way home from work. He personally did all the machining on my motor, except assemble of the pistons to the rods. He was very cool about the situation, got out his parralells and indicator and we checked all the pistons to the deck for height. The worst one was +.009, I didn't even think about the pistons will rock on the wrist pin(that's why I was getting different values, you rock the piston up and down and take the middle value. When we where done inspecting them all he said that he would take care of it, no charge. I told him all day long, that I thought it was my fault because I told him to cut the deck. He told me that the deck did need cut, he took about .004-.005 off, before he cut the deck he checked the distance from the crank center line out and the deck was still at factory spec's.
The fix is to cut the top of the pistons so that they are .005 below the deck and then rebalance. He took the pistons/rods along with him, I should have them back Wed if all goes ok. He said that when I get them back they will all be .005 below deck. This will give me equal power from each cylinder, according to him... I expressed my concern of the intake sealing, he told me it that it won't be a problem, time will tell.
I asked him why the pistons are so high and he thinks that Diamond probably has them spec'd so they are flush with the deck. I didn't order them special, I got all the parts for the machine shop, they came from Mike at Full Throttle. The shop did rework my connecting rods so they are now floaters, maybe the tolerances stacked up against me, the lengths of the rod centerlines, the crank centerlines from true center to connecting rod center.... I really don't know.

Chuck

 

[Sleeper-6]

STH Chuck!! I should have my short block back from the machine shop this month. You've run into enough problems for both of us. I hope this is the last of them.

 

[Jerryl]

I called the machine shop after work today, the supervisor stopped by my garage tonight on his way home from work. He personally did all the machining on my motor, except assemble of the pistons to the rods. He was very cool about the situation, got out his parralells and indicator and we checked all the pistons to the deck for height. The worst one was +.009, I didn't even think about the pistons will rock on the wrist pin(that's why I was getting different values, you rock the piston up and down and take the middle value. When we where done inspecting them all he said that he would take care of it, no charge. I told him all day long, that I thought it was my fault because I told him to cut the deck. He told me that the deck did need cut, he took about .004-.005 off, before he cut the deck he checked the distance from the crank center line out and the deck was still at factory spec's.
The fix is to cut the top of the pistons so that they are .005 below the deck and then rebalance. He took the pistons/rods along with him, I should have them back Wed if all goes ok. He said that when I get them back they will all be .005 below deck. This will give me equal power from each cylinder, according to him... I expressed my concern of the intake sealing, he told me it that it won't be a problem, time will tell.
I asked him why the pistons are so high and he thinks that Diamond probably has them spec'd so they are flush with the deck. I didn't order them special, I got all the parts for the machine shop, they came from Mike at Full Throttle. The shop did rework my connecting rods so they are now floaters, maybe the tolerances stacked up against me, the lengths of the rod centerlines, the crank centerlines from true center to connecting rod center.... I really don't know.

Chuck

That is great news.
”If” the deck height is correct, than the pistons are not to spec?
Why not send the pistons back and replace them?

I am no machinist or engine builder, but here is what I am thinking (out loud);
Shaving the pistons will reduce material on top the first ring.
While maybe not much to make a difference, this is already one of the weakest parts of the pistons. So, now you stand the chance of collapsing the land and “lock” the ring, depending on the boost and HP level, with even light detonation.

The compression will also be raised (slightly) from shaving the piston, from what you may have been shooting for.

The crank will also be slightly off balance, and depending on what RPM you plan to spin the motor, this could be an issue. I am only guessing about 0.12 points.

Like I said, I am no engine builder or machinist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time.

Edit:
Was the block was line-bored?