GNX #298 on Ebay: PA reconstructed title

[RobV6]

Frame

No I hadn't. But then there frames that could be bought. Again if
motor is usable.Hardest part of that would be.To either put body on frame.
Taking interior out. Or stripping the car to a shell. If body is till good.
Mand putting it on another frame. I haven't seen the car. But there is a point where it's no worth it. I've seen only one.Didn't know it was a car.

Again this is my opion. Just trying to give another side.
It also would be for me what this car done would bring? Later on

 

[HI85WH1]

Rob,

Thats the entire point. I'll post the link and you can see just how bad it is.

The entire car is twisted from front to back, and from the pics it looks like it tried to wrap itself around a lightpole at the drivers side A pillar.

Roof was cut off to extracate the driver.

Bad, Bad Shape...

here's the link to the shop...Buick Grand National GNX - Amsley's Customs - Chambersburg, PA

Now, If I were doing it "for myself" and bought this GNX wreck, I would but everything into a clean GN shell, and keep the original VIN from the GN.

Claim the car a "CLONE" and disclose how you got everything and what you did. The only thing this shop really did WRONG was to SWAP the VIN and try(and succeed) to pass this vehicle off as GNX 298.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

This is just a problem to us in the Buick world now

In ten years most of us may have sold our cars (GN's) and driving WRX's or SRT's

And the new proud owner of them gnx's would never know and it wouldn't matter to them as long as the car holds up and the title says GNX.

Be for real with your self
It’s not really about the car it self (Buick, turbo, 231 and trim) it’s about the VIN, title, 547 and $$$.
There is nothing special to the car it self.

Now, would I have swapped the VIN? NEVER.
I would have been stupid enough to actually rebuild the car.

Put in the back of the shop and when you have some down time put a guy to work on it and document your work.

 

[HI85WH1]

This is just a problem to us in the Buick world now

In ten years most of us may have sold our cars (GN's) and driving WRX's or SRT's

And the new proud owner of them gnx's would never know and it wouldn't matter to them as long as the car holds up and the title says GNX.

Be for real with your self
It’s not really about the car it self (Buick, turbo, 231 and trim) it’s about the VIN, title, 547 and $$$.
There is nothing special to the car it self.

Now, would I have swapped the VIN? NEVER.
I would have been stupid enough to actually rebuild the car.

Put in the back of the shop and when you have some down time put a guy to work on it and document your work.

I believe the car's history will follow it.. for a long time.

I think they did everything I would have except I would not have swapped the VIN... I would have kept the GNX VIN for a conversation piece.

 

[turbojimmy]

In ten years most of us may have sold our cars (GN's) and driving WRX's or SRT's

This is a joke, right?

Jim

 

[Grumpy]

I believe the car's history will follow it.. for a long time.

I think they did everything I would have except I would not have swapped the VIN... I would have kept the GNX VIN for a conversation piece.

thats one thing about the internet ... it never forgets :biggrin: the tag would make a great conversation piece .. I have a burnt TTA dash with 9 miles on it .. still have some crash pieces of my old 427 Cobra to I collect junk

 

[HI85WH1]

thats one thing about the internet ... it never forgets :biggrin: the tag would make a great conversation piece .. I have a burnt TTA dash with 9 miles on it .. still have some crash pieces of my old 427 Cobra to I collect junk

Like my 70 SS396 Chevelle Steering wheel thats all tweaked from the thief that smacked his chest against it when he ran it through a tile wall?..

THATs a great conversation piece... I'm sure the guy still has the imprint of the SS logo on his chest...

 

[HI85WH1]

I just ran a carfax on it.

05/12/1992 Maryland Motor Vehicle Dept. Williamsport, MD Title #15979100 Title or registration issued

12/04/1995 Pennsylvania Motor Vehicle Dept. South Mountain, PA Title or registration issued

01/09/2003 63,873 Pennsylvania Motor Vehicle Dept. Allentown, PA New owner reported SALVAGE TITLE/CERTIFICATE ISSUED

06/11/2004 Pennsylvania Motor Vehicle Dept. Chambersburg, PA New owner reported REBUILT TITLE ISSUED

 

[GNTIM]

I, like many others have followed this thread and it absolutly blows my mind that the law has not come down on this!!! It has been well documented on this thread. I know that there are many law enforcement members that are T/B fans and frequent this site but nobody has done anything!! Has anybody seen the Hemmings MM article about the fake Hemi Cuda? Last summer I got falsely chastized for "suggesting unscrupulous emission advice" and this is a clear cut felony staring people in the face!!

 

[TurboJunky]

Investigators are very aware of this car and the shop, and are on it...trust me.

 

[yullose]

See post #89 of this thread.

 

[TurboJunky]

See post #89 of this thread.

And??

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Let’s play devils advocate

How would you prove the VIN was moved?
Yeah theirs a picture of a vin-plate on a destroyed dash but how can you prove it was physically removed from the dash and placed on another dash.

They could have cut a portion of the firewall/cowl and welded it onto the other firewall/cowl
How is the law written? I think is Key
Is there a law in place that covers the cutting of a section of a firewall/cowl?
What does REMOVAL mean? In a court room with lawyers?

Looking at it from a distance it looks one way.
But pull the P.A laws or code books and see how it would apply to this case.
I also think that it is not getting any attention because it does not include a stolen car. (Tag job type of case)

And with the auto restores with their new term (re-bodied cars) it gets even harder to prove a case in court.

 

[TurboJunky]

This is a classic (and documented) case of a "re-tag" and is a felony.

You can prove the VIN doesn't belong to that car because the confidential VINs all over the frame, tranny, body panels, engine, axle and interior will all match BUT won't match the VIN in the dash.

He's selling this car as THE REAL GNX using the real GNX VIN from the dash and the car clearly is not. This is highly illegal.

It must have some sort of reconstructed title or as it's called here "assembled vehicle" title since the VINs are a mish-mash. It must go through a rigorous inspection process by trained auto theft investigators or DMV investigators before being issued that type of title.

As I said before, the authorities have been advised and should be looking into this right now.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Lots of people here know and say a lot but, like I said before what are the details of the law.
Not speculations or I thinks, lets talk about the specifics.
How is the law written?
How does it apply?

And are there any case laws that may also apply here?

 

[TurboJunky]

I can say with 99% assuredness it's illegal in all 50 states to take a VIN plate from one car's dashboard and place it on a like vehicle and represent the car as the original (donor) car. That was done in this instance.

My state's laws are pretty much consistent with other states. There may be differences in title applications, requirements, inspection processes', title descriptions (rebuilt, assembled, salvage, etc.) but simply put taking a VIN from a total and putting it on a perfectly good car and representing that car as the "original car" is the DEFINITION of a re-tag. It's what car thieves do!

 

[HI85WH1]

Re-bodies of early model cars with reproduction bodies differs from this case.

A repro 67-69 Camaro body is built with the intent of replacing a rusted out shell. You take a rusty donor and put all the other components into this new body. Key word being new.

Moving a VIN from one shell to conceal the identity of either vehicle is illegal.

Either to conceal the fact the car was wrecked and repaired or to conceal the identity of the "new" car. Where did this car come from? Was it stolen? Why would you take a good GN driver and put the VIN from another car into it? It is either stolen or salvaged, or somehow not worth anything... UNLESS you put the VIN from a high end collectible car built on the same chassis and pass it off as such.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Good try.
But is the rusted body any good? No
Are you going to put parts from one body to another? Yes
Including the Vin plate? Yes (in your example)

Now how the “new” car with lots is of old parts is going to be represented? As a 69 camaro ss or not ss but a 1969 camaro right?

Is the destroyed GNX body any good? Not to most
Are you going to put parts from one body to another? Yes
Including the Vin plate? In this case they did

Now how is the “new” car with lots of old parts going to be represented? As a 87 GNX


Now you tell me what’s the deference.


At least one guy here has swapped the full fire wall on his awesome car and no body is screaming to have his car investigated (nor it should be) but what’s the deference. Ohh It’s not a GNX. The god of GN’s LOL.


C-mon guys you know theirs lots of technicalities to sort out with this car. And lots of details that we don’t have.

BTW does anybody have a copy or a link to the law as it is written?
And does anybody know of any case laws that may apply to this specific or very close situation?

BTW I am not defending the VIN swap (I would have NEVER DONE THAT) just reserving judgment until I read the written law and find out of any case law changes that may apply to the original written law.

what is P.A’s legal definition of “RECONSTRUCTED TITLE”?

 

[HI85WH1]

The BIG difference is that the reproduction, being a body manufactured without a VIN for the purpose of being a replacement versus taking a VIN as issued by a manufacturer OFF not one car, but two, "to conceal the identity of" (<--- THIS should be in the law for all states as it is based on the federal standard) and putting the VIN from the higher value car that was, without a doubt, unrepairable.

My concern as I posted earlier in this thread was that should the body/frame that was used to "reconstruct" this car be stolen, THEN WHAT? The current owner could end up with nothing at all. He will have legal recourse to pursue his $$$, but he is still out that loss until he can recoup it from the party that sold him the car.


This Reminds me of a 69 Tri-power 427/390 Vette that was run over by a Tractor-Trailer some years back.

There was basically a tweaked frame, driveline, and bits and pieces of the shell. (Including the VIN)

THAT car sold in 1990 as is for $3.5K. The VIN wound up in another body that did not have title (for whatever reason) Ultimately, the person who wound up buying the car bought what he believed to be a numbers matching 427/390 Vette... yep, the drivetrain and dataplate matched the VIN... too bad the rest didnt. It turns out the "donor" car was stolen in 1970... (Hawaii has no Statute of limitations for auto theft) and out of a fluke, someone recognized a few "custom" touches the original owner added.

The company that auctioned the vehicle as a "clear title" had pictures of the wreck, and severity of the damage. It was determined that the vehicle could not have been rebuilt using the original body shell, and therefore could not have been rebuilt using the original shell, regardless of title status. (Very much like this case)

I cant help you on how PA's law is written... I'm an island hick....

http://www.dot10.state.pa.us/pdotforms/inspections/enhanced_si_guide.pdf

 

[HI85WH1]

Here is some stuff from a local case:

Again, I reiterate that I do know PA's laws regarding altered or defaced VIN. My standing is based upon what I know of our local laws.

The ... vehicle in question since its impoundment has been inspected and it shows signs of having an altered or defaced [VIN]. Now, under [Hawaii Revised Statutes (HRS) §§] 286-43 (4) and [-]44 (5) this subjects the vehicle to a summary forfeiture to the government because it is basically unlawful to be in possession of a vehicle or motor vehicle parts which -- on which the VIN number has been altered or defaced.

Hawai`i Revised Statutes (HRS) § 286-43 (1993) provides:

It shall be unlawful for any person to wilfully deface, destroy, or alter the serial number, a component part number, or identification mark of any vehicle, so placed or stamped on any vehicle by the manufacturer for the purpose of identifying the vehicle or its component parts, nor shall any person place or stamp any serial, motor, or other number or mark upon a vehicle, except one assigned thereto by the director of finance.
This section does not prohibit the restoration by an owner of an original motor, or other mark or number, when the restoration is authorized in writing by the director of finance, nor prevent any manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business, numbers or marks upon new motor vehicles or new parts thereof.

HRS § 286-44(a) (Supp. 2002) reads:
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to possess a motor vehicle, a motor block, or any part thereof, knowing that the motor number, serial number, or manufacturer's number, placed on the same by the manufacturer for the purpose of identification, has been changed, altered, erased, or mutilated, for the purpose of changing the identity of the motor vehicle, motor, motor block, or any part thereof. All such motor vehicles, motor blocks, or parts from which the manufacturer's identification number has been removed, defaced, or altered shall be forfeited to the county where found and if not identified may be sold at public auction or destroyed. If identified, all persons having an interest in the motor vehicle, motor block, or part shall be notified, there shall be assigned a new registration number, and the motor vehicle, motor block, or part shall be returned to the owner entitled to possession.