1LowLeSabre
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Maybe Kirban could send all the member's here one free bottle to try...
Heads up.. STP oil treatment ZDDP @ target $.97
- Thread starter klrv6
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they did supply everyone at Richard's "Reunion" last year with a FREE bottle to those who hadnt used it yet (i got some), and ive used it since.will buy more next week in BG.....
Gary Wells
White turbo Buick trailer park trash
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Maybe you could use instead the same Marvel's Mystery Oil or Singer Sewing Machine Oil that you wanted to use on your K & N air filter in lieu of K & N oil specifically designed for the K & N air filter. Good idea, huh?
That's why I suggested the trivia game, not just a blah...x car came with x options and crap like that. A real game, pull the questions from the technical forum about serious problems or major solutions. And no, the answer isn't always drink more ovaltine...
I guess it's a matter of advertising taste, you don't see some of the other vendors on here saying buy my product, nothing is better than my product, buy my product. Your engine will die if you don't buy what I have to sell, nothing is better, all else is junk!! Buy my product. That gets real old, quick.
Dennis Kirban
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kirban 2 cents worth
Clearing up a few things:
When the product first got developed before it was professionally packaged we gave hundreds and hundreds of bottles away at a super super price to turbo owners way back in August-Sept-Oct of 2007...
I been running trivia contests over the last 3-4 weeks under the turbo lounge and some of the prizes has been zddplus. Our product is the simplest to use if you want to use the oil you have always bought at your local store.
This product was not made solely for Turbo owners. Over 14 million 11990 and back cars are registered in the USA. If Richard was into another car brand those members would have heard of it first....our main sales is the wholesale market selling to major mail order companies.
We also sell to other turbo vendors as well.
As the thread has gained interest and as time goes on you can see that number one their is a problem with todays oil and number 2 you best be adding zddp whether its zddplus™ or whatever you feel comfortable using....
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
1LowLeSabre
New Member
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I have some gun oil I could use maybe.........:wink:
What is YOUR personal problem here? Seems every question or concern you have brought up has been answered with real answers...
Did you take the time to go to Mr. Clarks event last year and listen to the scientific data that was given?
Have you tried the product?
If so please explain the problem it caused you?
If not, I will send you a bottle myself so you can at least have tried it before you knocked it
If not, I will send you a bottle myself so you can at least have tried it before you knocked it
No, I have not attended any event for zddpplus and, as I have already posted, I was unaware of this product until I posted the STP item for sale and Mr Kirban responded. I guess I should try and get ahold of Richard Clark for the answers.
Where have I knocked this product? Just some specific questions with somewhat vague responses.
what about those of us that live no where near mr. clarks place to get a free sample and in depth info on this product. i haven't seen any trivia ? on here. are they in a post that is titled another subject? another question, will z max protect an engine the same or is it a totaly different type of lubricant?
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off to buy some pacifiers to bring to Bowling Green...... and yes they will be FREE
Gary Wells
White turbo Buick trailer park trash
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- 9,778
off to buy some pacifiers to bring to Bowling Green...... and yes they will be FREE
Can't make it to BG, Ty, can you ship mine?
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Anything for my West Coast friends, I will include a sheep for lou as well:biggrin:
Dennis Kirban
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kirban 2 cents worth
I see you reside in Kentucky if I am reading it correctly perhaps you are attending the GS Nats later this week if so swing by our spot Richard Clark will be there. Send me a pm with your address I will personally mail you all the tech briefs...
The product has been available now for almost 2 years. We sell to the one big engine and performance warehouse located near you and they own erson cams that we did a private label for.
Wile I agree other solutions exist, however, the simple truth of the matter is if you want to use whatever oil you currently buy at your local auto store and has the SM category in the starburst you best be adding this product....If you don;t believe Erson Cams Isky Cams, Crower Cams, and the fact it will be put in the Gallina/Freeman car at the Nats and its also sold by the GS Club. would assume you have heard of some of these companies...
I can see you being a little leary, if we did not have all this behind the product pus the fact the guy behind it has 100 plus Turbo Regals...
I have been awarding bottles in contests and likeit was stated before Richard gave everyone at his event a free bottle.
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
getchasum
MISSING 2 CYLINDERS???
- Joined
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Yes, Gary you hit the nail on the head, " Scott's better half"
and Yes, I was making a simple comparison on how, STP stacked up against ZDDplus. If you believe so highly in STP, get your gas at Marathon's they already have STP in the gas..... No, I know everything is not unicorns and sunshine, but it is your cam and not mine so I hope you do. If you can't make to NATS, send me your address and I will send you my free bottle from the open house and I will see if I can't get you some more data sheets from Richard unless you have any you can e-mail Dennis.Most of us have our cats under the workbench, so we are not concerned about those, but we all are willing to give $10 to save a $1000+ cam.
I wish you the best there "sunshine".
I forgot to log Scott out 1st.
JENNIFER LAMBERT
TURBOWIFE
klrv6.. maybe this will help
Gary.. I logged out of Scott's name.:tongue:
As part of an effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the U.S. EPA offers vehicle manufacturers "credits" for early implementation as well as penalties for violation of emission reduction standards. The EPA's program called for 100,000-mile catalytic converter life by 2004, 120,000 miles by 2007, and 150,000 miles by 2009. To achieve these goals, automotive manufacturers have pressured their oil suppliers to remove substances from motor oils that would shorten the service life, including the proven EP (extreme pressure) additive ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). Zinc and phosphorus from the ZDDP can be present in small amounts in the exhaust gas of an engine depending on the amount of oil which is consumed in combustion. These elements can coat the catalyst reducing the amount of catalyst exposed to the exhaust gases, ultimately increasing emissions at the tailpipe. As a result of the EPA mandate, the ZDDP level in engine oils has been declining since the mid-1990s, roughly coinciding with the implementation of OBDII.
ZDDP has been an important additive to engine oils for over 70 years, and has an excellent track record at protecting the sliding metal-to-metal cam lifter interface. Historically, ZDDP has been added to oils in amounts resulting in approximately 0.15% phosphorus, and 0.18% zinc. ZDDP protects by creating a film on cams and flat lifter contact points in response to the extreme pressure and heat at the contact point. The film of zinc and phosphorus compounds provides a sacrificial wear surface protecting the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear. In the course of normal service, this conversion of ZDDP to zinc and phosphorus compounds depletes the ZDDP level in the oil. Studies show that depending on the specific engine and severity of duty, after 2000-4000 miles of operation, the level of ZDDP can drop below that considered adequate to provide wear protection to the cam and lifters.
According to the SAE Tech Bulletin # 770087 [1] , operation of a flat tappet engine without adequate EP additives such as ZDDP quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. Camshafts are typically only surface hardened leaving the core ductile for strength. According to the SAE Bulletin, once cam lobe wear reaches 0.0002, "subsequent wear is usually rapid and catastrophic." Two ten-thousandths of an inch is one fifth the thickness of an average human hair.
In order to make engines last in the absence of ZDDP, virtually all IC (internal combustion) engines designed in the last ten years utilize roller lifters. Today, ZDDP has been removed from practically all automotive engine oils, rendering them unsuitable for use with older engines with non-roller lifters.
Why is it being removed?
Because contemporary engines with roller bearings no longer require the additional protection of Zinc and Phosphorus. Not true for classic cars, tractors, muscle cars, etc. Also removing the Zinc and Phosphorus from motor oil increases the life of the catalytic converter. But classic cars, tractors, etc., don’t have cats! Also, as part of its ongoing effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the EPA has mandated that emission systems must have a service life exceeding 120,000 miles. To achieve this, automotive manufacturers have required oil suppliers to remove additive packages from motor oils that could reduce emissions compliance.
ZddPlus is the ONLY EP (Extreme Pressure) component which re-establishes the ZDDP levels that our classic car engines were designed for, while allowing the car owner to use the base oil of their choice. While some off-the-shelf additives may have some ZDDP, the amount per bottle is small, and when enough is used to get the proper concentration of ZDDP, there is a quart or more of unspecified oil that comes along with it. This dilution of 20% of your oil with an unspecified oil also means that there is 20% less of the proper additive package. The chart below compares the amount of ZDDP in ZddPlus to GM EOS, an additive which claims to provide ZDDP based wear protection.
[1] Pless, Loren G., and Rodgers, John J., ‘Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type’, SAE pub 770087, 4
What's In Our Oil ?
As lubrication technology improves, so does the base oil used in the manufacture of engine oils. Oils are also changed and updated in response to advancements in engine technology.
Modern engine oil is a precise mix of a base oil with additives totaling almost 10% of the oil by volume. Pound for pound these additives are each more expensive than the base oil, and oil companies are in business to make a profit. Common sense says that these additives are there with good reason.
Modern engine oil is a multi-purpose fluid in an engine, carrying the heat away from hot spots and releasing it in the sump as well as providing lubrication to critical areas which need protection against wear. Different additives are put in the oil in order to address the needs of each specific engine system that is supplied with oil:
The crankshaft and connecting rod bearings discharge oil into the spinning reciprocating assembly, and an anti-foaming additive keeps the oil from turning into foam.
The heat developed on high-pressure contact areas can exceed the breakdown temperature rating of the base stock, so heat stabilizers are added in order to fight viscosity breakdown and ashing.
In a multi-viscosity oil, the multi-viscosity characteristic is established by an additive.
Acids and byproducts of combustion are neutralized by another additive.
A dispersant additive helps keep combustion particulates from clumping.
Detergents are added to lower the surface tension to a specific value to help keep contaminants in suspension and off of the metal engine parts. Some detergents also interact with the EP additive to gain an additional level of wear protection.
The sliding cam-to-cam-follower interface in a non-roller lifter engine requires a special EP additive, which has historically been the ZDDP that is now reduced in all API rated automotive oils.
ZddPlus contains the proper amount of ZDDP to give at least 0.18% zinc and 0.13% phosphorus level when a single 4 oz. bottle is added to a normal 5-quart oil change. This level of zinc and phosphorus is the level designed into pre-OBDII oils. Using ZddPlus affords you total control over the characteristics of the oil in the engine by allowing you to use the full 5 quarts of a high-grade automotive oil of your choice..
Why Can't We Use Diesel CI/CJ-4 Rated Oils?
There are some diesel engine rated oils on the market which may still have some ZDDP in them. There are problems associated with using these oils in a normal gasoline engine which can become severe in a high-performance gasoline engine. One issue is the high amount of detergent additive, and another is the high viscosity.
High detergent oil has a lower surface tension and lower shear pressure rating which can cause higher bearing wear in gas engines. A diesel engine needs oil with very high detergent capabilities in order to hold the large amount of combustion byproducts in suspension, but it is not optimized for a gasoline engine. The bearing journal size-to-displacement ratio on a gasoline engine is designed around the use of a lower detergent oil and relies on a high-shear rating to the oil.
The other problem with high detergent oil is that it actually reduces the friction reduction that the ZDDP affords, especially in a high-performance, high valve spring pressure engine.
The viscosity rating of most diesel rated oils is higher than optimum for our higher revving gasoline engines, and can cause oil starvation in bearings at high rpms.
Why Can't We Use Racing Oils?
There are some racing oils which maintain a level of ZDDP. Racing oils are optimized for short term severe duty, in contrast to an oil that has been designed for day in, day out street operation. The additive package in a racing oil does not have the same detergent characteristics which are designed into extended service oils. As a result, racing oils may not have the capability of neutralizing acids and keeping contaminants in suspension. Also, the breadth of choice of viscosity, so important to correct street engine operation over a broad temperature range, is not available in racing oils.
By using ZddPlus in addition to a modern high-quality oil of the proper viscosity for your gasoline engine, the correct EP lubrication level is established, and the oil characteristics remain optimized for your engine.r engine.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
Gary.. I logged out of Scott's name.:tongue:
As part of an effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the U.S. EPA offers vehicle manufacturers "credits" for early implementation as well as penalties for violation of emission reduction standards. The EPA's program called for 100,000-mile catalytic converter life by 2004, 120,000 miles by 2007, and 150,000 miles by 2009. To achieve these goals, automotive manufacturers have pressured their oil suppliers to remove substances from motor oils that would shorten the service life, including the proven EP (extreme pressure) additive ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). Zinc and phosphorus from the ZDDP can be present in small amounts in the exhaust gas of an engine depending on the amount of oil which is consumed in combustion. These elements can coat the catalyst reducing the amount of catalyst exposed to the exhaust gases, ultimately increasing emissions at the tailpipe. As a result of the EPA mandate, the ZDDP level in engine oils has been declining since the mid-1990s, roughly coinciding with the implementation of OBDII.
ZDDP has been an important additive to engine oils for over 70 years, and has an excellent track record at protecting the sliding metal-to-metal cam lifter interface. Historically, ZDDP has been added to oils in amounts resulting in approximately 0.15% phosphorus, and 0.18% zinc. ZDDP protects by creating a film on cams and flat lifter contact points in response to the extreme pressure and heat at the contact point. The film of zinc and phosphorus compounds provides a sacrificial wear surface protecting the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear. In the course of normal service, this conversion of ZDDP to zinc and phosphorus compounds depletes the ZDDP level in the oil. Studies show that depending on the specific engine and severity of duty, after 2000-4000 miles of operation, the level of ZDDP can drop below that considered adequate to provide wear protection to the cam and lifters.
According to the SAE Tech Bulletin # 770087 [1] , operation of a flat tappet engine without adequate EP additives such as ZDDP quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. Camshafts are typically only surface hardened leaving the core ductile for strength. According to the SAE Bulletin, once cam lobe wear reaches 0.0002, "subsequent wear is usually rapid and catastrophic." Two ten-thousandths of an inch is one fifth the thickness of an average human hair.
In order to make engines last in the absence of ZDDP, virtually all IC (internal combustion) engines designed in the last ten years utilize roller lifters. Today, ZDDP has been removed from practically all automotive engine oils, rendering them unsuitable for use with older engines with non-roller lifters.
Why is it being removed?
Because contemporary engines with roller bearings no longer require the additional protection of Zinc and Phosphorus. Not true for classic cars, tractors, muscle cars, etc. Also removing the Zinc and Phosphorus from motor oil increases the life of the catalytic converter. But classic cars, tractors, etc., don’t have cats! Also, as part of its ongoing effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the EPA has mandated that emission systems must have a service life exceeding 120,000 miles. To achieve this, automotive manufacturers have required oil suppliers to remove additive packages from motor oils that could reduce emissions compliance.
ZddPlus is the ONLY EP (Extreme Pressure) component which re-establishes the ZDDP levels that our classic car engines were designed for, while allowing the car owner to use the base oil of their choice. While some off-the-shelf additives may have some ZDDP, the amount per bottle is small, and when enough is used to get the proper concentration of ZDDP, there is a quart or more of unspecified oil that comes along with it. This dilution of 20% of your oil with an unspecified oil also means that there is 20% less of the proper additive package. The chart below compares the amount of ZDDP in ZddPlus to GM EOS, an additive which claims to provide ZDDP based wear protection.
[1] Pless, Loren G., and Rodgers, John J., ‘Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type’, SAE pub 770087, 4
What's In Our Oil ?
As lubrication technology improves, so does the base oil used in the manufacture of engine oils. Oils are also changed and updated in response to advancements in engine technology.
Modern engine oil is a precise mix of a base oil with additives totaling almost 10% of the oil by volume. Pound for pound these additives are each more expensive than the base oil, and oil companies are in business to make a profit. Common sense says that these additives are there with good reason.
Modern engine oil is a multi-purpose fluid in an engine, carrying the heat away from hot spots and releasing it in the sump as well as providing lubrication to critical areas which need protection against wear. Different additives are put in the oil in order to address the needs of each specific engine system that is supplied with oil:
The crankshaft and connecting rod bearings discharge oil into the spinning reciprocating assembly, and an anti-foaming additive keeps the oil from turning into foam.
The heat developed on high-pressure contact areas can exceed the breakdown temperature rating of the base stock, so heat stabilizers are added in order to fight viscosity breakdown and ashing.
In a multi-viscosity oil, the multi-viscosity characteristic is established by an additive.
Acids and byproducts of combustion are neutralized by another additive.
A dispersant additive helps keep combustion particulates from clumping.
Detergents are added to lower the surface tension to a specific value to help keep contaminants in suspension and off of the metal engine parts. Some detergents also interact with the EP additive to gain an additional level of wear protection.
The sliding cam-to-cam-follower interface in a non-roller lifter engine requires a special EP additive, which has historically been the ZDDP that is now reduced in all API rated automotive oils.
ZddPlus contains the proper amount of ZDDP to give at least 0.18% zinc and 0.13% phosphorus level when a single 4 oz. bottle is added to a normal 5-quart oil change. This level of zinc and phosphorus is the level designed into pre-OBDII oils. Using ZddPlus affords you total control over the characteristics of the oil in the engine by allowing you to use the full 5 quarts of a high-grade automotive oil of your choice..
Why Can't We Use Diesel CI/CJ-4 Rated Oils?
There are some diesel engine rated oils on the market which may still have some ZDDP in them. There are problems associated with using these oils in a normal gasoline engine which can become severe in a high-performance gasoline engine. One issue is the high amount of detergent additive, and another is the high viscosity.
High detergent oil has a lower surface tension and lower shear pressure rating which can cause higher bearing wear in gas engines. A diesel engine needs oil with very high detergent capabilities in order to hold the large amount of combustion byproducts in suspension, but it is not optimized for a gasoline engine. The bearing journal size-to-displacement ratio on a gasoline engine is designed around the use of a lower detergent oil and relies on a high-shear rating to the oil.
The other problem with high detergent oil is that it actually reduces the friction reduction that the ZDDP affords, especially in a high-performance, high valve spring pressure engine.
The viscosity rating of most diesel rated oils is higher than optimum for our higher revving gasoline engines, and can cause oil starvation in bearings at high rpms.
Why Can't We Use Racing Oils?
There are some racing oils which maintain a level of ZDDP. Racing oils are optimized for short term severe duty, in contrast to an oil that has been designed for day in, day out street operation. The additive package in a racing oil does not have the same detergent characteristics which are designed into extended service oils. As a result, racing oils may not have the capability of neutralizing acids and keeping contaminants in suspension. Also, the breadth of choice of viscosity, so important to correct street engine operation over a broad temperature range, is not available in racing oils.
By using ZddPlus in addition to a modern high-quality oil of the proper viscosity for your gasoline engine, the correct EP lubrication level is established, and the oil characteristics remain optimized for your engine.r engine.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
Gary Wells
White turbo Buick trailer park trash
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2002
- Messages
- 9,778
Sorry, Jennifer, only a guess. How many Lambert's can there be on a forum? And it is none of my business whose computer you are logged into or off of. I am a mod down in the regional area and am posting anywhere else as a forum member. Shane put the monniker moderator around my neck so that he can track me down when I stray. It's sort of like a cow bell. Thanks for the info on ZDDP, BTW, well laid out & written article & good info to have at hand.
I wish I could take credit for the article, but I can't. I simple did a search on the ZDDplus data and I knew Richard would use to enclose the information, fortunatly we had a member that had posted in early 2008. I know their is still more information that he released that showed the blind study and how each held up, including STP. He doesn't need to tell me about unicorns and sunshine, besides I would get grease on them anyway...
Dennis Kirban
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
- Messages
- 4,765
kirban 2 cents worth
I will post later tonite the ppm versus torco versus gm eos and the latest testimonial we have just received.....this should be quite convincing....
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
I will post later tonite the ppm versus torco versus gm eos and the latest testimonial we have just received.....this should be quite convincing....
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
Dennis Kirban
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
- Messages
- 4,765
kirban 2 cents worth
We have all the tech briefs on our website. Tech brief number 1 gives the ppm Your average SM oil has 600 to 800 ppm. Our 4 ounces has 51,500 ppm of phosphorous and 71,800 ppm of zinc. When mixed in your basic 5 quarts (160 ounces it gives you around 1,800 ppm which is where you want to be.
Today in the mail we received our testimonial from Dove Manufacturing. Dove is the largest US manufacturer of aluminum roller rocker arms. They do them for several other companies under various private labels.
They are the biggest period. In the year 2007 they entered their engine(s) in the engne masters challenge and wasted a cam on the dyno. Last year 2008 they used out product ZDDPlus™ in their Ford engine putting out over 500 hp at 6,500 rpms. After 25-30 dyno pulls upon disassembling they saw no wear issues on the cam or lifters.
"As a result we constantly recommend ussing Zddplus™ to all our customers as the best insurance available for any engine, especially in race and hi-performance applications." A direct quote.
Signed Earl Valtman Tech Services Dove Performance Manufacturing. PS: Many of our customers have reported similar results. Their phone number is 440-236-5139
Many readers of this thread I am sure have heard of Dove Manufacturing especially since they are the largest builder of aluminum roller rockers in the industry. Their would be no reason for them to endorse our product since they are a manufacturer only. They have seen the results first hand on a engine they entered in the engine masters contest. They were among around 30 other engine builders that participated in 2008.
The product now has tremendous creditibility in the market place.
Here is another one we have from RaceKrafters Bob Wise located in Lancaster, PA.
A direct quote "Zddplus™ has eliminated all of our flat tappet camshaft problems completely. Since adding ZDDPlus™ with our normal oil packages, we have had zero camshaft failures due to the lack of zinc and other products with current oils.
We started using Zddplus™ in our race engines equiped with solid roller lifters. Some of these engines are turning 9500 rpm with over 1100lb of open spring pressure. We have seen a significant reduction in cam lobe and roller wheel scuffing. None of our engines leave here without Zddplus™ and we require our customers to use it with every oil change."
(Sorry I am doing this from home and I do not have their phone number listed on their info sheet.)
I think now as you go back and read the various comments on this thread it pretty much backs up that ZDDPlus is the best 4 ounces of protection you can buy for valve train protection whether its a flat tappet or roller set up.
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
We have all the tech briefs on our website. Tech brief number 1 gives the ppm Your average SM oil has 600 to 800 ppm. Our 4 ounces has 51,500 ppm of phosphorous and 71,800 ppm of zinc. When mixed in your basic 5 quarts (160 ounces it gives you around 1,800 ppm which is where you want to be.
Today in the mail we received our testimonial from Dove Manufacturing. Dove is the largest US manufacturer of aluminum roller rocker arms. They do them for several other companies under various private labels.
They are the biggest period. In the year 2007 they entered their engine(s) in the engne masters challenge and wasted a cam on the dyno. Last year 2008 they used out product ZDDPlus™ in their Ford engine putting out over 500 hp at 6,500 rpms. After 25-30 dyno pulls upon disassembling they saw no wear issues on the cam or lifters.
"As a result we constantly recommend ussing Zddplus™ to all our customers as the best insurance available for any engine, especially in race and hi-performance applications." A direct quote.
Signed Earl Valtman Tech Services Dove Performance Manufacturing. PS: Many of our customers have reported similar results. Their phone number is 440-236-5139
Many readers of this thread I am sure have heard of Dove Manufacturing especially since they are the largest builder of aluminum roller rockers in the industry. Their would be no reason for them to endorse our product since they are a manufacturer only. They have seen the results first hand on a engine they entered in the engine masters contest. They were among around 30 other engine builders that participated in 2008.
The product now has tremendous creditibility in the market place.
Here is another one we have from RaceKrafters Bob Wise located in Lancaster, PA.
A direct quote "Zddplus™ has eliminated all of our flat tappet camshaft problems completely. Since adding ZDDPlus™ with our normal oil packages, we have had zero camshaft failures due to the lack of zinc and other products with current oils.
We started using Zddplus™ in our race engines equiped with solid roller lifters. Some of these engines are turning 9500 rpm with over 1100lb of open spring pressure. We have seen a significant reduction in cam lobe and roller wheel scuffing. None of our engines leave here without Zddplus™ and we require our customers to use it with every oil change."
(Sorry I am doing this from home and I do not have their phone number listed on their info sheet.)
I think now as you go back and read the various comments on this thread it pretty much backs up that ZDDPlus is the best 4 ounces of protection you can buy for valve train protection whether its a flat tappet or roller set up.
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
