Interesting turbo/dyno test tonight= bigger isnt always better

[bison]

How about the smaller billets ie; the 5857E and the 6057E.

Send them in. Backpressure will likely be a problem with those on this engine.

 

[bison]

Makes sense- when Don Cruz tore my 109 down, he said it was not going to last much longer. I had way too much timing, probably 30* or more with the chain it had, plus the align hone was high and I was running very milled heads, which means more compression, and the cam gear was not right on the timing cover. No wonder with just bowl porting and a little cam it was shot out of a cannon with a P trim TE45a.

Its surprising to some how far the old 76 trim turbos will go. With higher compression and some boost/timing, and the correct cam in the right spot you could wind up making another 75-100hp more than an engine with everything else the same except the boost pressure, timing, cam timing, and compression ratio. None of which are visible from the outside. You can go from a turd to an animal by paying attention to these things. Most on here seem to adhere to the 21* or less timing, sub 25psi boost and have no clue about cam timing or what increased compression ratio will do. So they are over turboed, under convertered/wrong converter, not a clue about the cam, and their tuning off a narrow band. Therefore their performance is lacking. There is a point where timing wont help but its definitely above 21* on these engines. Its possible to get it to work with those obstacles but it will take a lot of quarter passes to get it sorted out. I dont have time for that. There isnt even a drag strip within 100 miles of me. 9 out of 10 times its best to stay with a really small cam and let the turbo do the work. Not going to happen at sub 25psi with an 8:1 engine.

 

[Onalky87]

I would like to see a 6776dbb tested

Do u think the 3bolt big ex housing would start to benifit on the tested car if u matched it with a 3.5in dp and went open dp?

What you think bison? Worth the money?

 

[charlief1]

Its surprising to some how far the old 76 trim turbos will go. With higher compression and some boost/timing, and the correct cam in the right spot you could wind up making another 75-100hp more than an engine with everything else the same except the boost pressure, timing, cam timing, and compression ratio. None of which are visible from the outside. You can go from a turd to an animal by paying attention to these things. Most on here seem to adhere to the 21* or less timing, sub 25psi boost and have no clue about cam timing or what increased compression ratio will do. So they are over turboed, under convertered/wrong converter, not a clue about the cam, and their tuning off a narrow band. Therefore their performance is lacking. There is a point where timing wont help but its definitely above 21* on these engines. Its possible to get it to work with those obstacles but it will take a lot of quarter passes to get it sorted out. I dont have time for that. There isnt even a drag strip within 100 miles of me. 9 out of 10 times its best to stay with a really small cam and let the turbo do the work. Not going to happen at sub 25psi with an 8:1 engine.

This is part of what I wanted to talk to you about Brian.:biggrin: Start a thread on cam timing ect and I'll be more than happy to subscribe. The turbo is only part of the equation and I have that pretty much figured out but would like to bounce some theory around related to cam timing and compression to get a better idea of what's possible.:smile:

 

[DCVING 6]

What you think bison? Worth the money?

That's not going to anything for the HP numbers. That is kind of the point of this thread. Brian and Otto have shown that going bigger on the turbo, exhaust, etc isn't going to do chit until the heads are worked on more.

 

[turboc87gn]

So whats the ideal compression ratio/cam and cam advance for someone wanting to run 10.50s on kill with a set of ported big valve irons but without running ridiculous boost pressure?

 

[bison]

What you think bison? Worth the money?

I dont see a 3.5" dp worth anything with a 6776. Same with open ex unless the rest of your ex is really restrictive. It might be worth something with a 6780 or 6768 if it was run hard and capabhle of over 600whp. Ive opened up plenty of 3" dp's to accommodate the large ex wheel. If you plan on trapping over 135 id consider a .85 housing.

 

[bison]

So whats the ideal compression ratio/cam and cam advance for someone wanting to run 10.50s on kill with a set of ported big valve irons but without running ridiculous boost pressure?

Cant say what is ideal until you have tried several things to find out which worked best. No need to play with cam timing to run 10.50. Probably around 9.3:1 with a 212/212, 21-22psi.

 

[bison]

This is part of what I wanted to talk to you about Brian.:biggrin: Start a thread on cam timing ect and I'll be more than happy to subscribe. The turbo is only part of the equation and I have that pretty much figured out but would like to bounce some theory around related to cam timing and compression to get a better idea of what's possible.:smile:

Ill do it but i cant eat the labor on that one. Way too many things to do. Every cam tested would need to be checked after install. Being conservative id say about 4hrs per cam and 2hrs per cam timing adjustment. Not to mention id probably need at least one more set of pushrods around.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

Its surprising to some how far the old 76 trim turbos will go. With higher compression and some boost/timing, and the correct cam in the right spot you could wind up making another 75-100hp more than an engine with everything else the same except the boost pressure, timing, cam timing, and compression ratio. None of which are visible from the outside. You can go from a turd to an animal by paying attention to these things. Most on here seem to adhere to the 21* or less timing, sub 25psi boost and have no clue about cam timing or what increased compression ratio will do. So they are over turboed, under convertered/wrong converter, not a clue about the cam, and their tuning off a narrow band. Therefore their performance is lacking. There is a point where timing wont help but its definitely above 21* on these engines. Its possible to get it to work with those obstacles but it will take a lot of quarter passes to get it sorted out. I dont have time for that. There isnt even a drag strip within 100 miles of me. 9 out of 10 times its best to stay with a really small cam and let the turbo do the work. Not going to happen at sub 25psi with an 8:1 engine.

At 27 psi boost, 116 race gas and JayC race chip (probably 24+ degrees chip timing) it put down 595 rwhp 695 rwtq with the 45a, just a 210/210 roller and bowl ported only irons. Sure, the red lights on my knock gauge were lit up like a Christmas tree most of the time, but I didn't have a scanmaster at the time and didn't hear knock with my ears, I stayed in it- cometics FTW, which of course were toast when Don pulled them off. 48# injectors with 50+ base fuel pressure probably wasn't a great idea, but it ran strong.

 

[Otto J]

Cant say what is ideal until you have tried several things to find out which worked best. No need to play with cam timing to run 10.50. Probably around 9.3:1 with a 212/212, 21-22psi.

I can work with a local engine dyno to do this,would be way easier.

 

[charlief1]

Ill do it but i cant eat the labor on that one. Way too many things to do. Every cam tested would need to be checked after install. Being conservative id say about 4hrs per cam and 2hrs per cam timing adjustment. Not to mention id probably need at least one more set of pushrods around.

If you want stock I'll send you a set Brian.:smile: Been doing a lot of reading on the subject of cam timing, lifts, and duration lately because I think I'm gonna go with a bigger cam than what I've got now. 204/214 will probibly be what I end up with for now but I think a bigger one or a roller but I don't have the cash for a roller right now.:frown:

I can work with a local engine dyno to do this,would be way easier.

That would be great Otto. Looking foward to see what you and Brian come up with.:smile:

 

[jasjamz]

Bison, if you had to get the current long block into the 570-600hp mark do you think it could be done? What boost level, timing, and turbo?

 

[bison]

Bison, if you had to get the current long block into the 570-600hp mark do you think it could be done? What boost level, timing, and turbo?

It would take 35-40psi, 20* advance. Id use the 6680 off my other engine. VP Import fuel. Id need another alky nozzle or more injector too. Id need an external source of pressure to hold the wastegate shut more than likely

 

[D's GN]

Is the turbonetics 6680 turbo the same as a 66-Strim?

Datar

 

[NCTURBOS]

Some good stuff here guys... Keep it going!!

Brian, what PTC pump# are you running on this "test car"?


Thanks,

K.

 

[bison]

Is the turbonetics 6680 turbo the same as a 66-Strim?

Datar

yes, or GTQ all the same

 

[bison]

Some good stuff here guys... Keep it going!!

Brian, what PTC pump# are you running on this "test car"?


Thanks,

K.

Its an 18 stator. I was asked not to give out converter spec info. I had a 16 stator in it before. It feels exactly the same as the 18.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Thank God, finally in 2010 we have a GN on a dyno with tuners (Bison & Otto) who know WTF they're doing to show us what Vendors should've been years ago to help save us $$.

OUR HEADS AND INTAKE SUCK!!!!!

OP's what do you think the test GN's heads flow, 160/115 maybe with a stock unported intake?

Even if I go off what VPE chart of 223cfm @ .600 that still sucks IMO for an FI car. I've argued this years ago with a Vendor that we've been let down if buying a set of Aluminums that flow 230 out the box is good enough.

Plenum, spacer, ported intake and heads should be on the short list over big turbos. I'm sure most think my build looks stupid but this thread proves to build around a small turbo, then go big to get the most bang for the buck.

I think it's very cool of you guys to even offer your time to vendors to dyno their products to SELL to us after.

 

[NCTURBOS]

Even if I go off what VPE chart of 223cfm @ .600 that still sucks IMO for an FI car. I've argued this years ago with a Vendor that we've been let down if buying a set of Aluminums that flow 230 out the box is good enough.

I spent over 4-hours on a Superflow SF-600 flowbench 2-weeks ago flowing a couple different sets of iron heads. I would love to add a set of the VPE to that list if you're ever interested...


K.