Internal Hemorrhaging of a 109

[Jerryl]

Was reading a few post and got motivated by many of you. . . . So, I got the block back together.

Short block was assembled by the machine shop. Motor was running fine before I took originally it out, i.e. 20PSI hot oil pressure with 5w30 in +100F weather. The thrust was at 0.014”, and oil pressure had dropped 3 psi, so I took it out.

Fast fwd +12 months; Block went to the shop to install billet mains, and freshen up, squared, mag'd, deglazed, rods resized, etc.
The first time back, it ran 10 minutes "no load", and oil pressure dropped from 50 to 5, so I took it out.
I saw bearing material in the filter, but the shop said "everything looked good". (Hmmmm . . . . )

Block is back, the second time, from this shop, Specs; 109, 10/10 crank, Main/rods = 0.002/0.0022, FT roller cam / Morrel lifters, HV pump, blah blah.
Please take a look at the video, and let me know what you think it is.

FWIW:
When I did my "homework", the shop has done quite a few 109's in the area, including some S2's.

Appreciate any feedback.

.

 

[Chris Hogeland]

You need to find out the clearance on that Cam Bearing.

 

[bison]

missing bearing, wrong bearing or spun bearing

 

[J-B Racing]

Ya, he may have forgotted to put one in there.

 

[mikestertwo]

Looks like the rear cam bearing wasn't installed correctly. It's probably not covering the oil feed hole. That happened to my sons block a few years ago. Machine shop messed up.

 

[Blazer406]

FWIW.... Jerryl and I have a near identical situation..... we've talked on the phone. My main clearances and rod clearances are less than .002..... tried a HV pump.... set my oil pump gear endplay around .001 ..... booster plate... yada yada...... same deal as Jerryl..... except mine has nearly 90lbs cold oil pressure.....but let it warm up.... pressure just keeps on dropping..... give it gas....pressure comes up....but take it for a spin around the block.... just putting around.... come back.... mine is at 0 psi idling.... valves clattering and all..... My motor has been out 2 times since rebuild....both times since rebuild... I have inspected it myself. I am begining to wonder if I have a crack in the block somewhere that I have missed up to this point.

 

[williambavila]

i am pretty sure it has to do with the last cam bearing. If i remember correctly my last bearing was not in far enough causing the same thing but going torwards the back of the block. it looks as if the bearing is slid to far torwards the rear of the engine causing the oil to come torwards the front. (opposite of my problem). I pulled the bearing out myself and reinstalled a new one and fixed my problem.:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[TurboDave]

It's hard to tell but it almost looks like the oil's coming from the rear most lifter instead of the rear bearing.

 

[SloGN]

jerryl have you tried moving the last set of lifters to another place to see if the major leak follows them.


The next step is to remove the rear cam plug and make sure it's in the correct place. Also might want to measure the rear cam bearing and the cam to see if there is a problem with too much clearance.

 

[Jerryl]

Guys,
Thanks for the feedback, I sincerely appreciate it!

SloGN,
At the time of the video recording, I had already swapped lifters for #3 & 5 around, without change. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[LOT]

???

What happens if you rotate engine while running pump?

 

[Jerryl]

What happens if you rotate engine while running pump?

Good question. Depending on the position of the cam lobes, if they are down, you can clearly see the oil coming from the back. Must be something with the cam bearing. Thanks for posting.

As far as I know, the motor never had a spun bearing.
Do you think the shop simply installed the wrong bearing?

I read some of the other posts and do not understand the bearing install comment.
Does that imply that the bearing is too far towards the rear of the block and exposing the oil hole? Is that even possible?
Anyone have a picture what the rear cam hole looks like without the bearing?

 

[mikestertwo]

The cam bearing could be too far forward uncovering the feed hole. The cam has a hole or holes in the rear bearing journal to releave pressure build up between the rear of the cam and the rear cam plug. If you rotate the cam and the position of the oil leaking out the back changes position the bearing is most likely too far forward. If it doesn't move then the bearing is too far back. I used to have a picture of my son's block with the bearing too far forward causing this problem. I will see if I can find it.

 

[83ttypecooled]

Hi Jerryl,
I read through this post,and your problem is either clearance or a mis installed bearing. I guess it's in the builder's hands now,but at least a prime test will show if it gets fixed. I would have them prove the repair on the spot,of course. Sorry for your troubles;it shouldn't happen.
Dale

 

[Dominic]

That's alot of oil coming from there! I hope you can get it straightend out! I can't see where the oil is coming from exactly but my first thought would be cam bearing. Check your cam bearing clearance.

I have seen stock 109 blocks with deep grooves in the cam bore that go directly to the oil gallies. If you have a stock block laying around and you look in the cam bore you can see what i mean,i have seen it on many other types of engines too. Almost looks like there was a piece of debris stuck between the cam bore and the cam bearing when it was pressed into the block and it caused a gouge when it was smacked in. This will allow the oil to escape between the block and the bearing. Just check it all out good and i hope you can find the problem!

Good Luck!

 

[turbofabricator]

Jerryl contacted me yesterday and said that it was caused by an improperly installed cam bearing. Problem now fixed. He had bought the block from someone with the cam bearings already installed. I would have thought it would spin the bearing on start up. Luckily it didn't or it would have been costly to fix.
Come on Jerryl,.......get that car to the track. You guys have the winter weather to do that. We have to strap inflatable pontoons to our cars to run this time of year. With cooler weather your hot air car might actually have some air density reach the cylinders. You have a 109 block, you should bolt a 109 intercooler to it, too.

 

[williambavila]

i am pretty sure it has to do with the last cam bearing. If i remember correctly my last bearing was not in far enough causing the same thing but going torwards the back of the block. It looks as if the bearing is slid to far torwards the rear of the engine causing the oil to come torwards the front. (opposite of my problem). I pulled the bearing out myself and reinstalled a new one and fixed my problem.:biggrin::biggrin:

x2

 

[dr_frankenstein]

You have a 109 block, you should bolt a 109 intercooler to it, too.

Noooo! no more Belly Buttons!

LMAO

real men like theres HOT!

A.j.

 

[Jerryl]

Noooo! no more Belly Buttons!

Not sure what that means (I know its a joke, just trying to undersdtand)

As far as the issue;
Just posting some info in case someone else runs in to this issue.
The shop called and said the rear cam bearing was installed too deep. (Don’t ask which way because I don’t know)
Hopefully, I can get the pressure to >70 PSI on the stand. (Just a number I am used to seeing)

Thanks to all who replied.

 

[williambavila]

Not sure what that means (I know its a joke, just trying to undersdtand)

As far as the issue;
Just posting some info in case someone else runs in to this issue.
The shop called and said the rear cam bearing was installed too deep. (Don’t ask which way because I don’t know)
Hopefully, I can get the pressure to >70 PSI on the stand. (Just a number I am used to seeing)

Thanks to all who replied.

Hey man I am not the type of guy to say told you so but I TOLD YOU SO.... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: