Paging Lee Thompson - Oil Pump Pics

[Blazer406]

Anyone else.... feel free to give your opinion as well...... I've had a hot idle oil pressure issue that has been a thorn in my side for some time..... I think I have addressed everything (including rod and main clearances) but the oil pump at this point...... unless there is a crack in the block somewhere opening up bleeding pressure off when it gets hot....

Anyway.... I've not seen the inside of too many oil pumps.... so take a look and see if you spot anything that might be contributing to this oil pressure issue. The pump was recently assembled with the booster plate... the spacer plate... and the longer high volume gears..... IMHO.... It doesn't look bad..... and I should have oil pressure out the wazoo.

 

[Blazer406]

A couple more pics....

 

[Eticket]

what is your hot idle oil pressure? and what is it as rpm climbs?

The groove in the cam at #1 can hemorage oil too.

Depending on your pressure at different rpms.. you may not have an issue. you have wear it looks like.. not ideal, but not too abnormal either.

 

[Blazer406]

what is your hot idle oil pressure? and what is it as rpm climbs?

The groove in the cam at #1 can hemorage oil too.

Depending on your pressure at different rpms.. you may not have an issue. you have wear it looks like.. not ideal, but not too abnormal either.

When it cranks.... at idle... oil pressure is 65 psi....... after 10 min or so idling.... and the fans cycle a time or two.... oil pressure is down around 15-20 psi idling......... 10 min or so later.... again still at around 168 deg coolant temp..... but after it has cycled the fans again a few more times....... the oil pressure is down well below 10 psi..... might even be less than 5 psi...... Oil is straight 30W HD Castrol......

 

[Jerryl]

When it cranks.... at idle... oil pressure is 65 psi....... after 10 min or so idling.... and the fans cycle a time or two.... oil pressure is down around 15-20 psi idling......... 10 min or so later.... again still at around 168 deg coolant temp..... but after it has cycled the fans again a few more times....... the oil pressure is down well below 10 psi..... might even be less than 5 psi...... Oil is straight 30W HD Castrol......

To the "untrained eye", there appears to be scoring in a few places, and it almost looks like one gear is a bit taller from the wear on the booster plate.
If the taller gear is set to the correct clearance, the other will leak on the thrust side.

Easiest way in my simple mind ;
At this point, you have been through enough heartache, pain and frustration, I'd et another cover from TA or Earl Brown and call it good.
Sure, it is expensive but so is the motor. That will take all the other motor variables out, so at least you will know through process of elimination.

I know as an engineer you MUST solve the problem, but another cover buys you time to figure this one out while you enjoy the car. JMHO.

 

[Blazer406]

To the "untrained eye", there appears to be scoring in a few places, and it almost looks like one gear is a bit taller from the wear on the booster plate.
If the taller gear is set to the correct clearance, the other will leak on the thrust side.

Easiest way in my simple mind ;
At this point, you have been through enough heartache, pain and frustration, I'd et another cover from TA or Earl Brown and call it good.
Sure, it is expensive but so is the motor. That will take all the other motor variables out, so at least you will know through process of elimination.

I know as an engineer you MUST solve the problem, but another cover buys you time to figure this one out while you enjoy the car. JMHO.

You can't really feel the wear in the booster plate.....it is that little....also the scoring is not deep..... you can barely feel the marks.... I am cleaning up another cover I had this morning to see if it is any good. I am going to use one of them. I really want to use my existing cover so I don't have to re-set up my camshaft end play. The motor is still in the car..... and I really don't want to pull that intake off again. Anyone ever drill and tap a small hole in the front cover underneath the water pump..... to use to set camshaft end play? You could put a small pipe plug in there after you get done..... looks really like it would be possible....

Yes.... an EB cover or a TA cover would be nice...... but it is very costly.....I will probably give this setup one more try.... and if I fail again..... I'll back-up and re-group.

I bead blasted the oil pump gears this morning. I have them in the parts washer now.... along with my spare cover.... will see what happens with it.....

 

[mikestertwo]

The pump doesn't look abnormal. You definitely have a leak somewhere. What is the end clearance on the pump gears?

 

[Blazer406]

The pump doesn't look abnormal. You definitely have a leak somewhere. What is the end clearance on the pump gears?

I'll check tonight when I re-assemble it. I intended to last night, but got side-tracked when I got my spare cover out and started dis-assembling it.... I'll either plastigauge it or try the feeler gauge method.... or maybe set my dial indicator up down thru the cam sensor hole onto the shaft..... .001 - .002 will be hard to measure with the dial indicator with some sort of extension on the end of the pump drive shaft..... I'll figure something out....

 

[Jerryl]

. . . Anyone ever drill and tap a small hole in the front cover underneath the water pump..... to use to set camshaft end play? You could put a small pipe plug in there after you get done..... looks really like it would be possible....

Not done it, thought about it, kind of like the "Holiday Inn Express" . .

Have a plate welded on the inside of the cover to give you some thickness.
Use a shoulder bolt with a locking helicoil, and when the clearance is set, get a setscrew and locktite it in behind the first one so it can't back out.

 

[Blazer406]

Not done it, thought about it, kind of like the "Holiday Inn Express" . .

Have a plate welded on the inside of the cover to give you some thickness.
Use a shoulder bolt with a locking helicoil, and when the clearance is set, get a setscrew and locktite it in behind the first one so it can't back out.

Sounds like I am not the only one that thinks "out-of-the-box". LOL

Talking about out of the box...... I read a small article about a guy that sawed his timing cover in half.... and grafted the lower part of the cover off a FWD 3.8L.... with the gearotor sp? oil pump setup...... now that is out-of-the-box thinking........ sweet!

 

[Jerryl]

Sounds like I am not the only one that thinks "out-of-the-box". LOL

Talking about out of the box...... I read a small article about a guy that sawed his timing cover in half.... and grafted the lower part of the cover off a FWD 3.8L.... with the gearotor sp? oil pump setup...... now that is out-of-the-box thinking........ sweet!

Yeah, he build some AWESOME stuff for sure!
Turbo Buick V6 Gerotor Oil Pump
I have been forced to think out of the box while building a HA.

Back to topic;
You are paging the right guy!
Are you sure the gage is ok?

 

[Blazer406]

Yeah, he build some AWESOME stuff for sure!
Turbo Buick V6 Gerotor Oil Pump
I have been forced to think out of the box while building a HA.

Back to topic;
You are paging the right guy!
Are you sure the gage is ok?

Yea.... Lee T. is "The Professor" of these motors and tranny's..... he has been there - done that..... and already has the t-shirt.

The gauge I have is a little summit racing liquid filled gauge I screwed directly in the oil port (after I put in a tee) coming straight off the block. I originally bought it to put on the end of the fuel rail to do fuel pressure..... but I decided to temporarily use it for oil pressure duty....... until I mount my sending unit for my logging rig......The gauge is somewhat hidden.... you just have to peer over the turbo down to the gauge..... I assume it is accurate.

 

[87GN_70GS]

How does the regulator/bypass piston look? Is it sticking or worn? How about the piston bore? That is a place where pressure can also leak.

 

[STP]

What did your rod/main clearances end up being? I'd be looking at bearing clearances and/or front cam bearing. Who installed the cam bearings?

 

[Blazer406]

How does the regulator/bypass piston look? Is it sticking or worn? How about the piston bore? That is a place where pressure can also leak.

At a glance... it looked fine.... tit was centered in the bore.... pushed it in.... wasn't sticking.... felt smooth....

 

[Blazer406]

What did your rod/main clearances end up being? I'd be looking at bearing clearances and/or front cam bearing. Who installed the cam bearings?

Rods and mains were .0015 across the board. Crank is a std/std - bearings ended up using .001 bearings and had them coated...... cam bearings are new.... and were installed by my machinist....... he has done many turbo Buick motors.....

 

[dr_frankenstein]

wasnt there a Mud wasp in your motor?

maybe you still have galleys all messed up.

A.j.

 

[Blazer406]

wasnt there a Mud wasp in your motor?

maybe you still have galleys all messed up.

A.j.

Nope.... I painstakenly and miticulously probed and prodded each and every oil port.... and hole.... all the way through......and flushed with brake cleaner and blew out with compressed air... prior to me assembling the engine this time.... I didn't assemble the motor originally.... and it sat for a long time in the corner waiting on me to get all my "stuff" together before it could be assembled.......this time I did all the dis-assembly, cleaning, and re-assembly....... that is the only way you are going to "know" if it is right......

So to answer your question..... I believe I can say definatively that there isn't any restrictions/blockages in any of my ports...... and all the galley plugs were double checked.... triple checked even....

 

[LOT]

check this

remove the large nut--spring and cup. Check the cup where it seats back in the hole. I once had one that was not seating properly.
As Jerryl pointed out--both gears need to be the same HEIGHT to set end play.

 

[STP]

Does the engine sound like it is low on oil pressure? I would try another gauge for the heck of it. Doesn't sound like your problem is a restriction....

All else fails....Listen to Leeeeoo