Series II L67 Grand National??!!??

[xXch0dyXx]

Great work, guys! Those numbers on a "shakedown" are amazing.

Silly questions for you: How does the new setup "feel" compared to the 109? I mean does it start quicker, idle better, seem less finicky, etc. Also, with the F-body PCM is the car now OBD-II?

i love everything about this setup mor than the 109. I had my 85 converted to the 87, so it wasnt actually an 87 but it had all the parts. When you get into the throttle it feels as smooth as my stock 07 impala SS :biggrin:

the startup is next to instant, idle is very nice, and i can tell you with the utmost confidence that it IS NOT AS FINICKY!! that damn 109 is the most tempermental engine i have ever dealt with.

thanx for the comments, you are one of the few that noticed these were just "shakedown" runs, and we were not trying to put down any serious numbers. those i will try to get later this year aft i get some miles on it.... or maybe next year when i have the new block on the shelf with forged pistons

 

[SuperCPA]

You need to bring that thing down to the Buick vs Ford Shootout at Thunder Valley Raceway Park in Noble, OK on November 1st this year. I sure would love to see it in person! :biggrin:

Oklahoma Buick Performance Club

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

Great work AND times... nice to see people "stepping outside of the box"

 

[xXch0dyXx]

ide like to make it to a couple events this year, but i have a baby due the middle of november, so i dont think ill be able to get a few states away for that one : - P

 

[87GNSteve]

I was wondering which cars is the best to get the donor L67 engine from?
Is a 96-98 Camaro the best choice?
You said the olds v8 mounts for the L67 engine is that the 82-88 olds 307 in a G body?
What about the engine harness at the bulk head connector what kind or wire oin out/adapting ahd to be done?
Drive shaft?
Trans Cross member?

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

I was wondering which cars is the best to get the donor L67 engine from?
Is a 96-98 Camaro the best choice?
You said the olds v8 mounts for the L67 engine is that the 82-88 olds 307 in a G body?
What about the engine harness at the bulk head connector what kind or wire oin out/adapting ahd to be done?
Drive shaft?
Trans Cross member?

camaro have the L36. some motor same block only 9.4:1 CR vs the 8.5:1 CR of the L67

the L67 is in cars like GTP and those

 

[Trannyman95]

This particular shortblock was from a 98 GTP, though all 96-03 L67 supercharged engines share the same bottom end which is 8.5:1 compression. The NA or non supercharged engines were the L36 as mentioned above. The blocks are the same, just a different balance on the crank, different pistons, and different connecting rods. I have been using 80s Olds Cutlass mounts for the vin 9 HO engines such as the Hurst or 442 but Im not sure it matters. You can still get the frame side mount special order from the dealer for about $40-50 per side but the price keeps climbing since it is a discontinued part. The engine-rubber side of the mount could be available just about any parts store, mine came from Napa. The wire harness is completely custom made. I used parts of a 97 camaro harness but that was the extent of it and removed and relocated a few things and had to build all of the pcm and power end of the harness to fit the car. In my 86 Cutlass with the supercharged L67 engine I used a fairly stock 97 Camaro harness and had to splice in a few spots for various power and sensor wires for the inside of the car but built my own wire arrangement for the fuse and relay box. On the GN I only used about 4-5 wires from the drivers side firewall connector. The driveshaft was shortened to accomodate the 4L60E trans which IIRC is close to 3" longer than the 2004R. For the crossmember I had to modify it slightly since the trans mount is in a different location. I was suprised at the trouble I had in this area as on my Cutlass the crossmember has the trans mount right in the center, as does the Monte Carlo and you can use a special early to mid 80s 700R4 tailhousing and it fits near perfectly where the stock 2004R mount goes. Because the GN had the offset mount it made for a little more challange and I had to extend the mounting pad to get things to sit ok.

 

[GTPMORAD]

Nice work Davit all come together and run so well.

 

[turbows6]

this is a very untrue statement.

Look at those mods, what GN do you know running very low 11's that has a te60, 3k stall, ported heads, and a VERY mild cam. Not to mention the cars tires werent even checked, not air was put in my air bags, alky barely even on, and only running 17-18psi. This car isnt even tuned yet, its just had a few runs logged and minor changes.

Did i mention it was 1.5 hour drive straight into the staging lanes?

I will agree that it may be alot of work if you have a great running car, but when you need a new engine already, why not go with one that is stronger from the factory and easily available?? How many GN guys have run 9's or 8's on a stock bottom end?

sorry to go on a tangent, but if i wanted to run fast times we would have done some track prep, upped the boost, and dialed the car in perfectly b4 we went. We just wanted some shakedown passes since it had only been running a few days

I personally watched Steve from the board here run 10.6x on 275/60 drag radials in a full weight T-type driven to the track using a te-45a (similar turbo) with ported stock heads, stock block, stock crank, stock rods, and a 206 flat tappet and most importantly didn't have any custom made parts. The next owner went 10.5x. I'd be willing to bet it didn't cost any more than using a series 2 engine, everything just bolts together with no modifications, and when you factor in all the time making custom manifolds, downpipe, plumbing, etc. and gathering the parts to make it work and not being able to order a commonly available chip. I don't see any conceivable way you could say this is cheaper.

I still think it's pretty cool that you were able to get it to work and use an engine you can still find anywhere though.

 

[xXch0dyXx]

I personally watched Steve from the board here run 10.6x on 275/60 drag radials in a full weight T-type driven to the track using a te-45a (similar turbo) with ported stock heads, stock block, stock crank, stock rods, and a 206 flat tappet and most importantly didn't have any custom made parts. The next owner went 10.5x. I'd be willing to bet it didn't cost any more than using a series 2 engine, everything just bolts together with no modifications, and when you factor in all the time making custom manifolds, downpipe, plumbing, etc. and gathering the parts to make it work and not being able to order a commonly available chip. I don't see any conceivable way you could say this is cheaper.

I still think it's pretty cool that you were able to get it to work and use an engine you can still find anywhere though.

the te-45a is a bigger turbo if i remember correctly, and how much boost was he running? You have to consider the fact that i needed a full rebuild on the car anyways, which a good engine cost around 5k for the 109.

If any other options are available, i would never want to run a common chip anyways, always a custom tune for the car. hptuners can tune any variable needed for the car, to get it perfectly dialed in. I wouldnt think the chip would be a limiting factor in doing this swap.

not to mention these were shakedown runs, i didnt pick the car up until tuesday, then drove it to the track wednesday. I could have dropped tire pressure, turned up the boost and alky, and tried to run good times but i wanted baseline street trim numbers how i drive the car daily.

and my shortblock only cost me $150

 

[Adam Connell]

so whats the verdict on the A/c with this swap? Do able? Does there look like room for a compressor?

Also, I hope you're planning on having a cage installed soon lol. Then you can turn that thing up and go like the wind! Hell, you could have even done a twin turbo swap since you have to fab headers anyways... the wheels in my head are always turning lol

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

so whats the verdict on the A/c with this swap? Do able? Does there look like room for a compressor?

Also, I hope you're planning on having a cage installed soon lol. Then you can turn that thing up and go like the wind! Hell, you could have even done a twin turbo swap since you have to fab headers anyways... the wheels in my head are always turning lol

dont need a full cage until 9.99 only need bar if slower then that

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Did you use the W-body underhood fuse and relay center? If so, how many of the harness "bricks" are needed to run the engine.

I'm puting the L67 EFI system on the oldschool LC2 engine and I think I'm down to starting to wire it up soon and need to know if I need to grab anymore thing from the JY.

 

[xXch0dyXx]

dont need a full cage until 9.99 only need bar if slower then that

really?? what bar are you referring to, because i was under the impression i needed a 6 point cage... if i rememeber correct anyways.

we used the fbody 3800 under engine harness, but you would have to pm dave for info on everything he fabbed and used on it. he is some kind of wiring madman:tongue:

no more engine mods until the paint gets done, gotta have looks to go with the performance

 

[d0n_3d]

Nice conversion guys. Where in Indiana are you guys at???

 

[Trannyman95]

We are both from Fort Wayne area. The engine harness was based off of an F-body harness but thats where it ended and was nearly all custom made to fit the car.

 

[Darth Fiero]

so whats the verdict on the A/c with this swap? Do able? Does there look like room for a compressor?

Also, I hope you're planning on having a cage installed soon lol. Then you can turn that thing up and go like the wind! Hell, you could have even done a twin turbo swap since you have to fab headers anyways... the wheels in my head are always turning lol

I've seen the swap first hand and I think A/C is doable...probably easiest using a pancake-style compressor like what the stock GN motor uses; might even be able to get it to mount near the stock location where it would be on the stock LC2; which if so, would allow you to use the stock A/C lines that come in the GN. You can use the L67 balancer which gives you 2 crank pulleys, and can probably fab up a bracket for the compressor so it runs off the outer pulley by itself.

Basically to put it another way I am used to swapping engines like this into Fieros where you have a much more limited engine bay. So to me it looks like there is more room available for assy's in a G-body if one has the ability to get creative with metal working and a welder.

 

[charlief1]

I've been wondering when someone would do this. GREAT JOB!! The other thing I've been wondering is whether or not someone would relize the series II heads are designed like the stage II heads and the bolt patern is the same as the original 78 up. Has anyone tried to see if they will fit? Changing to the intake/exhaust port design would give incredible power gains if you could do it. And their cheap too.

 

[Turbo V6 Camaro]

really?? what bar are you referring to, because i was under the impression i needed a 6 point cage... if i rememeber correct anyways.

we used the fbody 3800 under engine harness, but you would have to pm dave for info on everything he fabbed and used on it. he is some kind of wiring madman:tongue:

no more engine mods until the paint gets done, gotta have looks to go with the performance

bar = usually 5-8 points..... look at NHRA rule book

A roll bar is required in any convertible running 13.49 seconds or quicker in the quarter mile, and in other cars beginning at 11.49. The roll bar is accepted in vehicles running as quick as 10.00 second e.t., provided the stock firewall and floorboard is intact, other than for installation of wheel tubs

Cage IS a cage dash bar all that jazz

If the floor and/or firewall has been modified, then a full roll cage is required beginning at a 10.99 e.t. A full roll cage is required in any vehicle running 9.99 seconds or quicker, and any vehicle running 135 mph or faster (regardless of e.t.).

Frequently Asked NHRA Tech Questions

sorry this is one of my pets peavs it drives me nuts when people say cage when talking about a Bar!!! i don't know why :tongue: :tongue:

 

[ijames]

really?? what bar are you referring to, because i was under the impression i needed a 6 point cage... if i rememeber correct anyways.

The vernacular seems to be to call it a cage if it has the halo with cross bar at the top of the windshield, usually a 10 point or greater, and to call it a bar if it doesn't have the halo, so a 4, 5, or 6 point (and I guess 8 point) is a bar.