AMEN!!!! You will save by doing it right the first time! Just look at our Race Car project in my sig... Instead of trying to "fix" the old, it was cheaper to just "start over!"
Ta block build?
- Thread starter Adam Connell
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AMEN!!!! You will save by doing it right the first time! Just look at our Race Car project in my sig... Instead of trying to "fix" the old, it was cheaper to just "start over!"
This post is worth reading over and over until it sinks in! How many Buick owners are now out of racing their car because they got tired of spending money over and over to save a buck? Well said!!!
Very good point Don. That is the ultimate loss for the community. We don't need guys spending stupid money when smart money is cheaper in the long run. When the juice isn't worth the squeeze it is just common sense (smart) to give up.
+3
I try to tell people this and they still don't want to listen. If their mind is made up already, it's hard to change it. They will only learn for their mistakes.
If one is going to build a Stage motor, you can't be asking "How much?". :tongue:
Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
It's unfortunate that people will tend to post fantastic numbers from stock block performances. But how long does it last? What headaches are endured to maintain that level? Very few people will actually post the trials and tribulations they had to go through, or are still going through to race their car the cheap way. Sure, there are those that will get that magic time slip and then retire their car forever because they know that if they keep it up the motor will go away in a spectacular fashion. These people are not true racers to me. But to not make it public the true shortcomings of going the 'cheap' route is a dis-service to those that are looking for a long term, dependable Buick V6 racer's engine.
And the racing organizations that make rules to encourage the destruction of the 109 blocks that are left in circulation bugs the heck out of me. Heavy duty blocks should be encouraged. Less breakage means better racing in the long run for everyone.
And the racing organizations that make rules to encourage the destruction of the 109 blocks that are left in circulation bugs the heck out of me. Heavy duty blocks should be encouraged. Less breakage means better racing in the long run for everyone.
I'm sure there are some that look at my car and say, "Oh sure. But look at how much money he has in it." Damn right! I hate to imagine how much more I would have spent trying to do it the cheap way. In fact, that is the driving force over most of my decisions with my car.
How much will it cost me if I have to do this over because of a stupid failure?
How much will it cost me if I have to do this over because of a stupid failure?
Adam Connell
Monster Truckin since 87'
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 969
I know and understand what yall are saying 100%!!! I am a firm believer in doing it right the first time... thats why I started this thread! Now that I know what Im in for it's just going to set a goal for myself and start picking up parts when I can! I finally got around to doing a full compound and polish on the car and boy did it clean up... The more I work on this car the more I fall in love with it ahaha. Thanks for all the info guys!
Comaring a 109 block build to a Stage or TA build is comparing apples to oranges. The 109 build is starting with a block designed for 250 hp. The Stage/TA block is a RACING block built to take 1,000 hp with no sweat. Most of us cannot afford (or need) a racing engine. If you got to ask "How Much?", you need to find another hobby. Racing engines...Buick V6, SBC, Hemi, etc are not for the faint of heart! I dreamed if a Stage block in my GN but the price tag convinced me otherwise.
Conrad C.
Conrad C.
turbofabricator
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 4,261
If your wallet is OVER-filled......................Then build an engine set for OVER-KILL.:biggrin:
If BIG power is your goal, then open the wallet and buy one of these: Engine Then if you got the "nads" (and the funds), you can throw a couple of 106mm turbos on it,..........you know, just for "FUN":biggrin:
Building a StageII or TA engine is a HUGE expense. Unless you have a machine shop in your basement. If you only plan on building a street terror, then a girdled 109 will work for 99% of the cars out there. If you have a few extra bucks (OK, ALOT of extra bucks) order a stageII from DLS. They will work good on the street, and will take what ever you can throw at it. BUT, a bad tune will kill anything ever built. Even one of those 864cid Sonnys' engines. (By the way, he is going to be offering a 932cid version, soon
)So what is the problem with buying a TA block & filling it with stock parts.
At least you will have a solid base to work with, 14 bolt heads etc.
Its easy to put 1/4 or 1/3 the price of a TA block into a 109 doing a girdle or caps & some machine work. Alot of money to put into a stock block.
Or am I missing something ?
Alot of machine work required for the TA block ?
Stock style parts wont work ?
Why do you need to spend 25 grand ?
At least you will have a solid base to work with, 14 bolt heads etc.
Its easy to put 1/4 or 1/3 the price of a TA block into a 109 doing a girdle or caps & some machine work. Alot of money to put into a stock block.
Or am I missing something ?
Alot of machine work required for the TA block ?
Stock style parts wont work ?
Why do you need to spend 25 grand ?
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
- Messages
- 9,208
Like ALL new blocks, machining is required before assembly. Used blocks also require machining for proper tolerances and fitment.
Over the years, we have found the prep work and machining for a TA alum block will generally run about $2-300 more than a stock block.
This is the case when NO mods such as cap, girdle or hard block are done to the stock block. If these mods are done for a stock block, the add for parts and labor can be well over $1000.
Stock style parts can, and have, been used in the many of the TA blocks we have done. We use forged internal rotating parts - crank, rods and pistons. These same parts are also used in many 109 block builds as well.
Let me add this about alum blocks in general. There are different procedures and tools need for machining and assembly building any alum short block. When looking and choosing a shop or vendor to build an alum block, check out their recent record and experience in this area.
Adam Connell
Monster Truckin since 87'
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 969
Ok sounds good! My real issue with the 109s is the fact that you NEED a girdle or similar bottom end reinforcements to get into the bigger numbers... All I really want is a bullet proof bottom end...and 14 bolt heads would be nice too. Im going to basically piece together an entire engine and then swap them, so I was just trying to figure out what the difference is between building a "built" 109 or a basic TA with the same parts and the only difference being the blocks... Sounds like Im not the only one who has had this idea! Once again thanks for the input guys. I just got hired at a much better company with a huge promotion, so hopefully I can start putting back some cash for my engine build!
Wow, for that kind of money, you may as well drop in a V8 for ultimate power/reliability. Bu then sadly you lose the whole V6 "cool factor". I love how people's eyes get huge when I tell them it's just a V6.
We all showed the V8 guys at Norwalk what the V6's can do in case they forgot. They were running a regular program on Saturday when TSM/TSO ran qualify times. I heard somebody made a comment how we can't race our cars and the guy was told "Wait till tomorrow when it counts". :biggrin:
How hard is it to race a N/A V8?
Sorry for the Hijack.
We all showed the V8 guys at Norwalk what the V6's can do in case they forgot. They were running a regular program on Saturday when TSM/TSO ran qualify times. I heard somebody made a comment how we can't race our cars and the guy was told "Wait till tomorrow when it counts". :biggrin:
How hard is it to race a N/A V8?
S
orry for the Hijack.[/QUO
ted, i go to local track muncie dragway. and watch fast bracket cars and slowones, most of the cut .001 to .010 lites on a .500 tree they only run 1/8 mile. dragsters and door cars some run from 4.20 to 6.50 and some slower. they are hard to beat at their own game. good luck. oc
Its just like any other new block, the bores are rough machined to the minimum bore size, all the clearances will need to be checked and machined to specs. Though I do think the deck is finished. I'm pretty sure, Nick back me up here, that you could build a TA block using nothing but off the shelf parts intended for a 3.8L 109 with the exception of the motor mounts and fastener hardware; though not entirely sure why you would.
We all showed the V8 guys at Norwalk what the V6's can do in case they forgot. They were running a regular program on Saturday when TSM/TSO ran qualify times. I heard somebody made a comment how we can't race our cars and the guy was told "Wait till tomorrow when it counts". :biggrin:
How hard is it to race a N/A V8?
S
orry for the Hijack.[/QUO
ted, i go to local track muncie dragway. and watch fast bracket cars and slowones, most of the cut .001 to .010 lites on a .500 tree they only run 1/8 mile. dragsters and door cars some run from 4.20 to 6.50 and some slower. they are hard to beat at their own game. good luck. oc
My point is how much to they have to do when staging the car. They have more electronics to help them and variables that are more repeatable then we do.
I guess I opened a can of worms. :biggrin:
