What intercooler are you running and for what reasons have you made this selection?

[fastblackracing]

Bison, you haven't started the three pages of discussion about whether it is better to put the h0t air in at the bottom or top? Half kidding, half serious. The bottom tank and core close to the tank will be somewhat blocked by the bumper while the top tank and the rest of the core will get full airflow. My gut says it would be better to put the hot air in at the bottom, but I don't have any data or calculations to back that up and heat transfer was never my strong suit in school. Do you know anyone who has done the experiment? How does Procharger plumb theirs?

ijames on most of the procharger stuff since most of the applications are different it is really up to the end user to figure out the easiest plumbing routes...... now with that said on some of there specific kits the pipes are supplied for installation but again it was done for easiest install.

IMO the procharger coolers are a pretty piece....on the mustang the cooler we had to work with which we new was undersized it still managed to put down 850 at 6700 rpm.....we were cut short with ignition issues ....I will see if we still have that cooler and post some pics of it...

 

[Pronto]

Could be like this but out the bottom.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Bell...versal-Air-to-Air-Bar-and-Plate-/252176223269

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I could see this turned upside down work with our set up.
View attachment 269020

Kinda looks like mine, just a lot smaller. Also, I have 2 inlets and the tank tapers to the center instead of just one side.

 

[bison]

Bison, you haven't started the three pages of discussion about whether it is better to put the h0t air in at the bottom or top? Half kidding, half serious. The bottom tank and core close to the tank will be somewhat blocked by the bumper while the top tank and the rest of the core will get full airflow. My gut says it would be better to put the hot air in at the bottom, but I don't have any data or calculations to back that up and heat transfer was never my strong suit in school. Do you know anyone who has done the experiment? How does Procharger plumb theirs?

We just do what we can get away with with the space we have. Its important to taper the flow path as it exits the turbo to reduce swirl. tapering also allows the air to begin expanding which will drop temperature a little before it hits the core. As far as real time air/air cooling theres very little. Almost all of the initial heat rejection is through heat sinkage into the intercooler. It takes a lot of air to do a little cooling. Theres hardly any airflow over the core at low speeds

 

[fastblackracing]

We know that we want as little pressure drop as possible, since this is basically free power if we can recover it but at what charge air temp do we say it is good enough? I am thinking two different numbers weather you are spraying some meth or just using race gas......since I have no meth experience what do you like to see as a good temp to fully utilize the meth?

 

[fastblackracing]

Bison do you feel that the garrett high efficiency cores are better than the bell cores or do they generate more flow restriction for the same size core?

 

[bison]

Bison do you feel that the garrett high efficiency cores are better than the bell cores or do they generate more flow restriction for the same size core?

I dont have enough data to make that determination. Were not in a position where a few % here or there is going to matter anyway especially knowing we can likely improve whats out there by leaps an bounds. Look at it as raking leaves. You could spend 3 hours and get 99% of the leaves or spend 20 hours and get every leaf. I know what id be doing unless i was getting paid for my time. If i was designing an intercooler for a new production car that had minimal space and needed to be as light as possible while an acceptable pressure drop and heat rejection was still observed id likely have access to all kinds of test equipment and many miles of r&d and most importantly id be compensated for my work. Id take either of those cores over a Chinese knock off though!

 

[fastblackracing]

I dont have enough data to make that determination. Were not in a position where a few % here or there is going to matter anyway especially knowing we can likely improve whats out there by leaps an bounds. Look at it as raking leaves. You could spend 3 hours and get 99% of the leaves or spend 20 hours and get every leaf. I know what id be doing unless i was getting paid for my time. If i was designing an intercooler for a new production car that had minimal space and needed to be as light as possible while an acceptable pressure drop and heat rejection was still observed id likely have access to all kinds of test equipment and many miles of r&d and most importantly id be compensated for my work. Id take either of those cores over a Chinese knock off though!

I hear you lol, the inside of the tubes looks a lot different on the garrett Hi f vs the bell core. The bell core appears to be made very well and you are correct about bell having tons of cores.....holy crap I bet there is at least 500 to chose from

 

[turbobitt]

Working up a quick model I think we could package this nicely and have the tank parts laser cut reasonably. 1300 CFM capable and with a 12" hot flow length the pressure drop should be minimal. Bottom tank will hang just below the radiator core support no lower than the traditional horizontal flow FM intercoolers.
AG.

 

[turbobitt]

Few more....

 

[ijames]

AG, don't you want a uniform taper extending the full tank length, like the bottom tank in the picture by Pronto? That should give the most uniform flow across the core, with the least turbulence for least pressure drop. That is also roughly what the Procharger IC has. Also, adding the taper plust the two extra bends the length of the tank, like the Procharger unit, will greatly stiffen the tank walls and less importantly will slightly reduce the volume for a couple of milliseconds off the spoolup time .

 

[turbobitt]

AG, don't you want a uniform taper extending the full tank length, like the bottom tank in the picture by Pronto? That should give the most uniform flow across the core, with the least turbulence for least pressure drop. That is also roughly what the Procharger IC has. Also, adding the taper plust the two extra bends the length of the tank, like the Procharger unit, will greatly stiffen the tank walls and less importantly will slightly reduce the volume for a couple of milliseconds off the spoolup time .

Yes that would be preferred but was trying to make it easy to construct and mount. By making the upper and lower tanks common it drives the cost down. By having the tank flat makes it easy to mount on the top. See below illustration. Didn't think it was the worse compromise but it could change. Keep in mind that it still has about an estimated twice the flow as a 3" horizontal flow 27" wide core.

 

[turbobitt]

This is just a first attempt at seeing what we can do. I was originally accounting for pipes on both side but since the lower tank will be below the bumper supports it will be possible to increase the core width about 3-4 inches. That gives an even larger flow increase to about 1500 cfm. For comparison we are estimating a large horizontal flow to be around 650 cfm.
We have another way out of the box idea that we will build for my own car. Don't really want to share that until we have some data but its a real exciting design.
AG.

 

[bison]

Few more....
View attachment 269176 View attachment 269177

I have a really good feeling about this design for a racer looking to go low 9's or even into the 8's with e85 or Alky injection. This will really free up the workload of the compressor and is still a very simple design with the common tanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Robert Wilson]

Very interested in this design.

I have been running a V2 since they came out new and currently spraying 2 nozzles of methanol after the intercooler.
Tons of logs with IAT dipping to ambient or slightly below and climbing 8 to 10 degrees during the run.
Currently don't have hot side numbers but after reading through this thread it sounds worthwhile to collect.

Thanks to AG and Bison for sharing.

 

[ijames]

Didn't mean to sound disparaging, AG, just wanted to make a suggestion or two after having seen a friend with an 8 sec Civic struggle with his end tanks cracking from being too thin and not well supported so each boost cycle flexed the flat portions of the tank outwards until it eventually cracked. Even with the Procharger-styled tanks (for want of a better description), the top and bottom tanks can be identical. You just weld a tab on the bottom and the two round stubs on the top for mounting, and rotate the elbows as needed on the ends, but that doesn't change the tank sheet metal. I think it is a great project, good luck with it.

 

[SS/GN]

The oe,s use plastic tanks. Could this be an option?

 

[Steve]

The image of the proposed intercooler above looks similar to the unit in the link below which comes with cast aluminum tapered endtanks(you can get the tanks configured either way). Treadstone also offers cast endtanks seperately also if you wanted to use a particular core. The cast endtanks would be thick and durable for mounting.

http://www.treadstoneperformance.co...63&prodname=TRV259+Series+Intercooler++1300HP

 

[bison]

Didn't mean to sound disparaging, AG, just wanted to make a suggestion or two after having seen a friend with an 8 sec Civic struggle with his end tanks cracking from being too thin and not well supported so each boost cycle flexed the flat portions of the tank outwards until it eventually cracked. Even with the Procharger-styled tanks (for want of a better description), the top and bottom tanks can be identical. You just weld a tab on the bottom and the two round stubs on the top for mounting, and rotate the elbows as needed on the ends, but that doesn't change the tank sheet metal. I think it is a great project, good luck with it.

Usually when there's an end tank failure the material and thickness selected was inadequate. Bracing could be added internally to control flex if need be. That long strip along the ends is of concern but won't be a problem on this design. We're not worried about saving 2lbs and want to be able to make these with as little fabrication as possible. We will be pressure testing and looking for flex on our prototypes. From what I've seen a lot of the intercoolers that failed had very thin sheet metal and weren't rated for high pressure usage. We are wide open to input so keep the idea coming


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[turbobitt]

Very interested in this design.

I have been running a V2 since they came out new and currently spraying 2 nozzles of methanol after the intercooler.
Tons of logs with IAT dipping to ambient or slightly below and climbing 8 to 10 degrees during the run.
Currently don't have hot side numbers but after reading through this thread it sounds worthwhile to collect.

Thanks to AG and Bison for sharing.

I have data on my V1. At 30 psi manifold pressure I'm seeing about a 5 psi pressure drop from hot boost measured before the intercooler and at 75 ambient the charge pressure only drops to about 160 degrees at 30 psi boost and a turbo hot boost temp of about 450 degrees.
AG.