Where to get the octane?

[vlzman]

Hi, I have my stage car set up for C16+30psi of boost (PTE47-88 turbo). Problem is that leaded gas is not allowed anymore by racing organisation in my country. Still I don't want to lose a lot of power by switching to unleaded gas. So please give some advice which would be the best way to have the same power but preferrably staying on the safe side. I know that it's possible to use meth mix. Also some in our country are using E85 mix or E85 straight up (not 100% but mixed with 2 stroke engine oil) and getting also good results. I know that it's impossible to get the same power+detonation resistance like with C16 but maybe someone have had similar experiences?
Any advice is welcome.
thanks
Veljo

 

[Alky V6]

Straight methanol. Then you can use even more boost.

 

[vlzman]

That would probably involve a massive fuel system upgrades??
I have 1600cc injectors and Weldon racing 2015 pump. Would using straight meth cause me durability/stability issues?

 

[Alky V6]

That would probably involve a massive fuel system upgrades??
I have 1600cc injectors and Weldon racing 2015 pump. Would using straight meth cause me durability/stability issues?

Another set of 1600cc injectors and a Weldon 2345A pump with a volt booster would do it.

On the durability and stability question, it depends on how well built the chassis is. How aero is the body? Is it setup for MEGA-speed? :biggrin:

 

[vlzman]

Another set of 1600cc injectors and a Weldon 2345A pump with a volt booster would do it.

On the durability and stability question, it depends on how well built the chassis is. How aero is the body? Is it setup for MEGA-speed? :biggrin:

With the durability question I actually meant how does the engine take the beating. New set of extra strong rods are needed probably? I have Oliver 6.5 rods at the moment.

 

[Alky V6]

With the durability question I actually meant how does the engine take the beating. New set of extra strong rods are needed probably? I have Oliver 6.5 rods at the moment.

Actually, the methanol is easier on the engine. Those rods are perfect. That's what I run too.

 

[vlzman]

Anyone had good results with ethanol??

 

[vlzman]

Really there are no any stage cars using ethanol?
Don do you have any pictures of intake you using with double injectors?

 

[BlownV6]

Anyone had good results with ethanol??

After watching me run methanol for years without any water in the motor , my buddy Jim Rock made the switch EXCEPT!! Harry at precision turbo convinced him to use ETHANOL because thats the fuel harry was messing with in many of the import NOPI cars. He has had nothing but really good luck using it. Side note is he doesnt use water either!! He was as nervious as a whore in church when he first got it going. He doesnt have any freeze plugs in the side of the block and every time he had the thing running he would jump under the car with a thermal gun and check the cylinder temps through the freeze plug holes. Funny watching a 300# man make a half pass and jump outta the car and dive underneath it to check the temps, then get back in and drive back to the trailer and dive again:biggrin:. Didnt take long for him to get over it and lose the heat gun. ETHANOL works!! Mike

 

[Alky V6]

Really there are no any stage cars using ethanol?
Don do you have any pictures of intake you using with double injectors?

Don't let this scare you away from running alcohol.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/fabrication-no-solicitation/275644-intake-manifolds.html

More power can be had with methanol.

 

[vlzman]

Don't let this scare you away from running alcohol.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/fabrication-no-solicitation/275644-intake-manifolds.html

More power can be had with methanol.

Wow Don, that's all I can say. This intake is a piece of art not a piece of car engine
Unfortunately my fabrication skills equal to zero so I wouldn't even dream of building such a thing myself
Any possibility that you would take the same road again, only difference you would get paid this time? Fortunately I have no plan on using nitrous.
Any difference in feeding the engine with methanol or ethanol, I've heard that when using ethanol then it takes 40% more comparing to gasoline, is it the same with meth or is there any difference?

 

[Alky V6]

Wow Don, that's all I can say. This intake is a piece of art not a piece of car engine
Unfortunately my fabrication skills equal to zero so I wouldn't even dream of building such a thing myself
Any possibility that you would take the same road again, only difference you would get paid this time? Fortunately I have no plan on using nitrous.
Any difference in feeding the engine with methanol or ethanol, I've heard that when using ethanol then it takes 40% more comparing to gasoline, is it the same with meth or is there any difference?

In a high power situation with methanol, you're looking at 2.0-2.5 times the volume of fuel compared to gasoline. It is a great high performance fuel though.

If I were to tell you what I would need to make a copy of my intake, you would turn and sprint for the door. It makes me cringe with fear just to think of trying to come up with a copy of my intake.

 

[vlzman]

If I were to tell you what I would need to make a copy of my intake, you would turn and sprint for the door. It makes me cringe with fear just to think of trying to come up with a copy of my intake.[/QUOTE]

I actually thought that, I wouldn't need so complicated solution anyway. I was more thinking of intake with possibility to mount two injectors per cylinder. Or is it possible to buy such a thing from anyone? Should be possible to manage them from my BS3??

 

[Chevota]

There is absolutely no longer a need to run 2 or more injectors per cylinder. 225lb inj are available thru delphi, 225lb-500lb inj are available thru Moran, and Precision is now selling Micks 220lb-500lb+ injectors. I'm running Delphi 225lb'rs and can achieve a decent idle and startup without a problem on E85. BTW, E85 likes a COLD plug.

 

[vlzman]

There is absolutely no longer a need to run 2 or more injectors per cylinder. 225lb inj are available thru delphi, 225lb-500lb inj are available thru Moran, and Precision is now selling Micks 220lb-500lb+ injectors. I'm running Delphi 225lb'rs and can achieve a decent idle and startup without a problem on E85. BTW, E85 likes a COLD plug.

So I could run straight meth or pure ethanol by only rising the fuel pressure by changing the pump. That would be really cost-effective. Would it only take changing full range on the fuel map or is there need for messing with the spark map?

 

[fog]

So I could run straight meth or pure ethanol by only rising the fuel pressure by changing the pump. That would be really cost-effective. Would it only take changing full range on the fuel map or is there need for messing with the spark map?

Not pressure, flow is what you need with bigger injectors. The fuel pressure remains the same.

Also, the whole fuel system needs to be checked, will it flow that amount or not. That is done by unhooking the return line and routing it to a separate can. Now add 30psi of pressure to the FPR vac port to simulate full boost situation and see how many gallons per minute you get to the can.

 

[vlzman]

Well, did some research and found out that there's considerable difference in ethanol and methanol. If ethanol AF should be about 9 then methanol more like 6. So as I'm not aiming for mega HP then more reasonable would be to update my fuel pump,-lines and injectors and switch to pure ethanol with some 2-stroke oil in it.
We have the crappiest race tracks in the world so it's more important to obtain stability and consistance than producing more and more HP.
How much difference can be between ethanol and race gasoline from the durability point of view? I mean does the alcohol give more hammering to rods and pistons?

 

[Alky V6]

Well, did some research and found out that there's considerable difference in ethanol and methanol. If ethanol AF should be about 9 then methanol more like 6. So as I'm not aiming for mega HP then more reasonable would be to update my fuel pump,-lines and injectors and switch to pure ethanol with some 2-stroke oil in it.
We have the crappiest race tracks in the world so it's more important to obtain stability and consistance than producing more and more HP.
How much difference can be between ethanol and race gasoline from the durability point of view? I mean does the alcohol give more hammering to rods and pistons?

If you're looking for a top lube to add to the ethanol, check out Klotz top lube. It works great with methanol. You'll have to check into it for ethanol.
If the tuneup is correct, you will end up with less mechanical and thermal stress to the bottom end. At least I know that to be true with methanol. Should be the same for ethanol. Not sure what the flame speed is with ethanol.

Start out with the same timing you would use for gasoline. My timing is at 34 degrees btdc by 1870 rpm @ 100 kPa and ramps to 26 by 7800 rpm @ 31 psi boost.

Scott. I run the coldest plug I can find with the shortest ground electrode. Champion makes a great short ground electrode plug. With alcohol fuels you will never have to worry about fouling plugs ever again. Just throw the coldest in there. Depending on how much hp per cylinder you're making, you may want to look into retracted gap or surface discharge type plugs. Don't tell me you got a plug electrode hot? I know very well what happens in that situation. No intercooler, you'd better be running that sucker rich.

 

[Alky V6]

Scott. Without an intercooler, you may need to run so rich that a wide band sensor that reads that rich may be hard to find. You'll need something that reads .65 lambda or lower. Time to become a plug and egt reading expert. One more reason why I run an intercooler. :biggrin:

 

[Chevota]

I'm currently using the coldest NGK plug I could find for my application, a -11. With the E-85 I run 36 deg timing and 9.25:1 at idle and end up at 26deg timing and 6:1 at 311kpa. EGT's are in the 1300* range. Rich enough, you think? Wait till you see the new E85, turbo, 6 liter LS sleeper project that's in the works:smile: