bump for a good thread. im going to add this small piece of info. after going faster and faster and about to hit the 10's mark i think for me its coming down to the the intake design and the turbo outlet temps even on alky. with our intakes the alky just doesnt have enough distance to fully cool the charge. also with the way its designed compared to the intercooled intake we suffer from heat soak badly as far as the oil and heat coming up through the intake. thats just my .02 worth at 1:02am
Why Are HotAir Cars Slow?
- Thread starter Boost231
- Start date
Boostnitup
Member
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2002
Season 2010 is coming!
Latest...
Converting over to the '92 Iroc radiator, and a new T-66. I retain a 60-1 that needs a rebuld...
More 14 second passes in 2010!
Latest...
Converting over to the '92 Iroc radiator, and a new T-66. I retain a 60-1 that needs a rebuld...
More 14 second passes in 2010!
10's here we come but to add to the thread.
I think hotairs are slow do to the high intake temps ( about 200-255) with alky so without 255+. so with that being said hotair means less power which means less timing which mean less power. i think if we could get out air charge down in the 150 range we would be doing good.
the only time i have had my intake temps at 158 at the top end of the track was when i made a full pass at 7psi. thats the only time i have data of the airtemps droping throught the pass.
I think hotairs are slow do to the high intake temps ( about 200-255) with alky so without 255+. so with that being said hotair means less power which means less timing which mean less power. i think if we could get out air charge down in the 150 range we would be doing good.
the only time i have had my intake temps at 158 at the top end of the track was when i made a full pass at 7psi. thats the only time i have data of the airtemps droping throught the pass.
Brent
Have you ever thought of doing a 70/30 mix of alky and water?. The water has 3 times the capacity to assorb heat out of the air. When doing the water mix you can actually add more real fuel(race gas) and timing. That in itself will add some more power due to there is more energy in race gas than in alky.
We have been messing with this on Esinger's car with pretty good results.
I see tseveral problems (limitations?) with hot air cars:
1. the lack of readily available upgraded turbos,
2. the sharp 90 degree bend that the air has to take as it enters the intake manifold,
3. anytime you compress air, you heat it up...see 4. below!
4. hot air is not as dense as cold air so the amount of fuel that you can add is less.
Chemical intercooling (alky injection) and E85 can help some of the above problems. It just depends on how much power you want to make and how innovative you want to get.
Hot air cars can make a lot of HP. Cold air cars will always be able to make more, everything else being equal. You cannot fool the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Conrad
PS...Let the firestorm begin!
1. the lack of readily available upgraded turbos,
2. the sharp 90 degree bend that the air has to take as it enters the intake manifold,
3. anytime you compress air, you heat it up...see 4. below!
4. hot air is not as dense as cold air so the amount of fuel that you can add is less.
Chemical intercooling (alky injection) and E85 can help some of the above problems. It just depends on how much power you want to make and how innovative you want to get.
Hot air cars can make a lot of HP. Cold air cars will always be able to make more, everything else being equal. You cannot fool the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Conrad
PS...Let the firestorm begin!
Hahaha! I have no problems with anything you've said Conrad:biggrin: You're just stating the facts.
have not tryed a mix of alky and water YET. im going to see where i can get to with 100% meth and my current setup. i will then switch to a .85 housing and see what she does. then after that i will try expermenting
CamoDeafie
New Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2010
has anyone considered making a tubular intake manifold that goes through say, a box of dry ice? (kinda like a reservoir looking thing that the intake tubes go through) would that be considered intercooling because its still behind the TB and the turbo? random thought. as to the laws of thermodynamics, good points all...I think the HA cars can give the IC guys a run for money......
They can, Brent has walked a few over the years
in time my friend. that or e85
I want a 9 second hotair
even if it takes a new motor to do it
I want a 9 second hotair
E-85 with water/alky should get you there Brent.:smile: I just want to break the 12:91 barrier myself.:biggrin:
in time my friend. that or e85
I want a 9 second hotair
Well brent i think you need to add some NAWS
I think the HA cars can give the IC guys a run for money......
I've felt the same way for years.... Now to get it to go a bit faster in 2010 is the next goal.
I think E-85 is a real plus for our cars, no denotation, you can run more boost and it's a lot cheaper then race fuel. You just need to be able to push volumn, which I can dual fuel pumps and upgraded fuel rails. Went with a 120# injectors just for the sheer fact I can still add another 130 horse before running out of injector. The cooling effect is there and the car responds nicely. I have the tune set and even had it tuned with the 120# injectors for 110 if E 85 is not available. What we saw was the car does not denotate and I was running out of octane on 110 at about 25#'s of boost, with E 85 I continued to make horse power. A lot of myths had a lot of people confused but there are a lot of buicks going E 85 and having great results. Hope to post more here shortly.
I've felt the same way for years.... Now to get it to go a bit faster in 2010 is the next goal.
I think E-85 is a real plus for our cars, no denotation, you can run more boost and it's a lot cheaper then race fuel. You just need to be able to push volumn, which I can dual fuel pumps and upgraded fuel rails. Went with a 120# injectors just for the sheer fact I can still add another 130 horse before running out of injector. The cooling effect is there and the car responds nicely. I have the tune set and even had it tuned with the 120# injectors for 110 if E 85 is not available. What we saw was the car does not denotate and I was running out of octane on 110 at about 25#'s of boost, with E 85 I continued to make horse power. A lot of myths had a lot of people confused but there are a lot of buicks going E 85 and having great results. Hope to post more here shortly.
Congrats on the E-85 switch. Do you still inject some fuel in the air stream to help cool the actual intake charge thats in the plenum. Or are you just spraying the intake runners only via the injectors?
Also one question is to why you were not using 116 octane fuel instead of the 110? There would be considerable gains in just the 116.
If one is gonna run alcohol/E-85 i think the best way is to upsize the fuel system and inject it that way instead of having 2 fuel systems that need tunning.
I'm hopeing to have my new motor in the 10's this yrs. I got to make 1 pass with it after i broke it in for 400 miles. I got a 7.12 @ 98 with a 1.68 60ft @ 16.5 psi on pump gas. The engine was not tuned in very well as it had a little to much timing @ 22 degrees with the extra compression compared to the old engine. I was very very happy to see a pass like that! i was on cloud nine that evening till i smacked a deer with the car later on that night
. I still have not got my car back from the body shop yetSorry for getting off topic i tend to run my mouth a little to much
I run dual fuel pumps, never had to seperately tune them in all the time I've ran the car, have always ran dual fuel pumps on my set up??? No I don't inject it,the E 85 provided enough cooling effect. I upgraded the fuel rail due to another mod that was made not for this set up.
116 is not readily available at the pump here like 110, I would have to order it by the 55 gallon drum and at 8.50 or more a gallon 2.29 makes more sense for E 85, more cooling from E 85 as well which means I can go further with my combination..
116 is not readily available at the pump here like 110, I would have to order it by the 55 gallon drum and at 8.50 or more a gallon 2.29 makes more sense for E 85, more cooling from E 85 as well which means I can go further with my combination..
hmm... let me say this whole hot car slow thing irks me... yes less potential than the cool cars but a little fab work goes a long way. I worked on a 84 that was a soild 11 sec car with a new flange welded on running a 4 bolt turbonetics turbo and a few custom welded up pipes that looked like oem stuff to the untrained eye. Snow kit , nice 3inch exhaust a 2800 converter.. mild ported heads and intake go along way to dropping the temps in these cars also.
I want some hard data on intake temps becides mine. I spray a lot of alky and its hard to keep the temp below 255 deg at 24psi. I can get it to around 180 with 7psi and the temps drop the longer I stay in it. Once its in the 20's I rarly see temp drop as I'm making a pass. I use to data log with the powerlogger and the data was wrong. It would always show 208 as the max temp. Weird but now my xfi tracks it accuratly.
