Why Are HotAir Cars Slow?

[Boost231]

a couple questions on this topic

1.What psi do the 86/87 10 second cars run?
2.Has anyone ever had the intakes and heads on a flow bench to actual measure the difference in flow?
3.Has or does anyone offer a aftermerket intake manifold if not WHY?
4.Do the hot air cars with the 86/87 conversion match the performance of the actual 86/87 cars?

ok lets see if i can answer these.

1> Depends alot on the Combo. Could be 10 psi could be 30+ just depends.

2> Heads are the same 8445 so flow is the same nothing changed between the years. intakes i dont think anyone has ever put both them on a flow bench to see what they flow. i would love to do this and would pay to do this but i cant find anyone that can do it. i would like to take a stock 87 intake a ported 87 intake a v1 intake a stock 84 intake and a ported 84 intake and have then all flowed to see what the results are on the same bench. i know there are #'s out there for the 87 intake but i would like to get them all on the same bench and do them all on the same day with the same person operating the machine. this would tell us alot about our intake and how much it really doesnt flow or how much it really does flow.

3> There have been several after market intakes made for our cars. the ones right off the top of my head are the V1,V2,V3 intakes. if you dont know what those are you can do a search for more info as that would take me a long time to type. to sum them up the v1 is a gutted intake stock location hot air forum intake. V2 stock location turbo but uses a intake inlet like the 87 and uses a intercooler. gets the throttle body of the turbo and makes it a blow threw. v3 is a hot air style intake and the turbo is clock to alow a small section of pipe to connect to the fron of the intake changing only the inlet of the air to the fron of the intake. ok enough of that

4> Yes. If you take everthing off our motor except the heads front cover and what not and bolt all the 87 stuff up yes. its the same motor. 109 heads are the same it would be just like a 87 with the same performance.

hope i could answer those they way u want if not i will try again

 

[esinger]

What I understand of the difference between 84/85 and 86/87 blocks is the hole for the oil return. But are the decks different on the blocks? Aren't we suppose to use thinner head gaskets than the 86/87 blocks?

Conrad, thanks for the kind words. You know I just like to pick fun with you about the intercooled setup on your car Everyone makes their own choices about what they want to do with their cars and I respect your decision to go intercooled. You have one heck of a car and a great guy as well.

I'm sure someone can get into the 10s and even 9s with our cars. As good friend Pat reminds me, money makes cars go fast.

 

[tb3]

your in the uae boost231? cool stuff. There was a lot of intl. transfers from the uae when I was in college. Great bunch of guys! Let me tell ya, they loved the u.s.!! The first thing they did was shave their beards when they got off the plane. (a big no no where their from???) You always knew when they where going back home cause their beards started to grow out. I have a funny story, I drove a 74 cadillac hearse in college. At the beginning of the semester, a huge group of them wanted to go to the local strip bars. (they'd never been, and where all rowdy and pumped up). So we all pile into the hearse, and off we go. About halfway through the night we ran into a group of people I knew, and they where talking and laughing with these guys and asking them, "so you rode in the hearse?" They had no idea what that car was, and as they started to realise it, one by one, they came up to me, faces white as sheets, and said "uhuh, no way are we riding back in that thing". the ride back to the dorms that night was very quiet to say the least, I heckled them quite a bit over the next 4 years.:biggrin:

back on subject.
I know this is old old news. But I was reading the other night about Marka Gallina racing her 84 t type back in the 90's. She had that thing in the 11's with the stock turbo, 2 1/2 inch dowpipe, stock heads and intake. (not ported). Judging from some of the pictures, the car isn't gutted either. The ac and vent box where deleted,roll cage installed. I have a list of her mods, and the biggest stretch that I can see is the 4.56 gears. She said that the most incredible thing about the car is probably what they "could not" do to the engine, in order to run stock Eliminator in either the NHRA OR IHRA. So, what gives? Why are the 11's so tough to beat? could be a lot to what has already been mentioned in this thread as far as a #'s game. Because of the production comparison between the 84/5's and the 86/7's... all the time, focus, research has went to the latter, as far as mods, parts, improvements, etc.

What about this, (I'm sure its been mentioned before, remember, I'm still a newbie, so go easy on me), Take a completely stock and well maintained 84/5 and 86/7 side by side, matched evenly with options. Remove the intercooler from the Ic'd car and bypass it, and install the same size garrett turbo as the 84/5 car on it. (Heck, to be even more fair, install a electric fan on the hot air and remove the mech one, but how much hp does a mech fan rob? 3-5 hp? nevermind, keep the mech fan) Then start your data, 1/4, 1/8, 60 ft times. Will they be neck and neck? Then start throwing the same bolt on stuff one at a time, to each. Will they both progress the exact same? At some point, will the 86/7 start pulling ahead and making more hp, and more boost? Or not? Would this be a valid way to try to come up with the answer?

 

[Hot Air]

Don't forget...alcohol injection is a chemical intercooler and octane enhancer! It wasn't available when I made my decision to go intercooled! I would install aluminum heads with the bigger intake valves (or port the stock heads if $'s are tight), get a BIG roller cam and rockers, free up the exhaust, extrude-hone the intake, install the biggest turbo possible, install a BIG alcohol injection system and BIG injectors and go have some fun! Just think about NASCAR's restrictor plate motors! It can be done.
Conrad

ps..Eric...I'm proud of your efforts with hot air cars! I know you are having fun embarassing the I/C cars.

 

[Preluder77]

Hi, Alpha coould you give me a link to a good site to buy the alky kits ?


Nevermind you sig worked great lol

 

[Boost231]

wow i will have to think about these post tonight. i just got off work and let me tell you it was a rough night anyways i will post more tonight and try to answer these question posted above.

 

[Boost231]

as far as taken to equal car one being a 84 the other being a 87 and doing what you say to do i think the intercooled car will still make more power do to the fact of small things like the postion of the throttle body and the design of where the turbo is and the intake design. also the downpipe design and other small stuff that adds up. it would kinda be cool to do them side by side same mods and everything and see what happens. anyways as far as some other post you dont need a big cam in these cars to get them to run good. but i think the bigger the turbo the better and i will soon find out once i take my turbo off sometime long down the road.

 

[Hot Air]

Do a google search on "SMC Alcohol Injection" and "Razor Alcohol Injection".

Also, see the www.turbobuick.com forum shown below.


http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/al...7-notice-all-without-alky-injection-read.html

Conrad

 

[skylarkstage1]

Turbomotion V1,2,3 Kits

Boost231

Your reference to the Turbomotion V1-V3 kits caught my interest. I purchased a V2 kit several months ago and plan to install the kit in a hot air car with a modified 4.1 production engine. Research I've done about these kits has been, for the most part, fruitless. What little info I've come up with has not been very positive. Before I devote any more money and time on this project, I would like your input and other board members about the pros and cons of the Turbomotion kits ,specifically the V2 kit. Thank you for any and all input.

 

[Boost231]

Here is my input on the V2 but remember i have never used the V2 i have only used the V1 and we all know the V3 sucks. anyways if i ever decided to intercool my car years back i would have goten the V2. i personely think the v2 is a good kit. the intake design was not bad as the recloation of the throttle body and they way they had it setup was just like the 87s except it kept the turbo in the back. anyways i think you will be happy with that setup. maybe someone who has it on there car or has had one can chime in here. i think you should go for it i would if it was mine.

 

[Boost231]

bump for the slow hotair cars

 

[Boost231]

i was reading some of my posts and i think its alot of little things adding up. The dp with the extra bends is going to effect flow. might not be much but its going to effect flow. also header design with the way ours are desinged there not up to par as far as the passenger side goes. yes postons and atr made some ok aftermarket ones but the extra lenght to the turbo effects this system. also the throttle body the air has to be sucked into the turbo threw the small throttle body. i took a messurement and the inlet side of the turbo is about the same size as the outlet of the throttle body so there is not much room for inporvement because the walls of the compressor housing is getting thin so you can really open it up to much more and have enough area for the gasket to seal. Also i think the intercooler statement that i posted before needs to be changed. just because we are spraying a chemical intercooler (alky) we are still not getting out temps down. i did some reading about intercoolers and i couldnt believe the temp drops from the turbo discharge to after intercooler temp. were talk a couple hunder degrees just in the air to air intercooler that huge. anyways just brain storming again

 

[1QUICK85]

Why are Hot Airs so much slower?

Because something so rare, is worth it!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[84HAGN]

Amen

Because something so rare, is worth it!!!!!!!!!!!

:biggrin:
DATS RIGHT
YOU DA MAN

 

[Boostnitup]

Why are "Hot-Air" cars slow?

Lacking Air volume / Flow.

Heat soak.

Constricted exhaust.

If someone wants to shoot for some previously unseen performance I believe they will be found in the latest E-85 fuel. Higher octane, and burns much cooler. Little to no carbon buildup on pistons and valves... it is a sweet deal. You pay about $1 less for it than pump Premium too.

We have some good posts on this subject in our local Colorado Street racing board The Colorado Racing Network

Board Message <--- E85 Thread

Who bought Marka's T-type? I understand it was up for sale a few years ago. I wouldn't state that her turbo was "stock" because it was modified. The housing itself was "stock." There were other mods on that car as well. If the rules allowed it... why not? If there is a gray area... take advantage of it. :biggrin:

I purchased one of the first set of V2 intakes to come out... a handful were configured for front mount intercooled. Personally... to those of you who are "waiting" for such a set up I encourage you to just give in to converting over to the '86/'87 intake setup. The downfall of the V2 setup is it still retains the stock '84/'85 downpipe configuration. You gain more exhaust flow by converting over to a larger 3" downpipe in the '86/'87 configuration and don't risk your knock sensor going off everytime the '84/'85 setup smacks your frame or firewall. There are plenty of V2 pics on the MSN website.

 

[Boost231]

boostnitup this is the first i have ever heard of anyone having porblems with the turbo hitting the firewall. i have a Ta-54 and mine is now where close. also the dp hitting as soon as i put my HRPARTS motor mounts i have plunty of room and im running a 3in dp.

 

[Boostnitup]

I wasn't referring to the turbo

As you go larger in down pipe (with the "Hot-Air" configuration) you risk smacking the frame or the firewall. The only down pipe I utilized that didn't hit anything was the 2 1/2" ATR offering.

I understand that not everyone has easy access to custom fabrication efforts and obtaining that perfect fit item just isn't out there 98% of the time.

 

[Boost231]

humm. Well i wonder if anyone else is having this problem. i have had several 3 ich dp's on my car and everyone has fit with no problems. None have hit the frame or firewall. maybe its the Motormounts im running? anyways i believe you i just have never had this problem.

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Brent- You are right-It is the motormounts. I will confirm this when I get my new HR.... Poly mounts put on next week. Take care- Brad

 

[Boost231]

Glad Thats all it was. Might want to check your trans mount while your at it. I got the Poly trans mount as well. my drive line is stiff and its nice. no false knock thats for sure.