2013 TSO Rules Discussion

[HighPSI]

As I see things so far, the following rule changes are being proposed:

#1 Exhaust rule: Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count

#3 Allow E85 Fuel

I have had some other suggestions but unless they are posted here by an eligible racer, we won't vote on them. Some that come to mind were: not allowing wheelie bars, making all TSO races 1/8th mile, removing liquid weight penalty, etc..

 

[tom robison]

I think you guys that still race this class need to open up to new things if you want it to continue at the events. I do not understand why a few are scared of e85 as a usable fuel. I think I was the first to have e85 at BG in 2011 and nothing was said about it at peer tech. I had proposed e85 wording into the rules and though the wording was shot down, it is still allowed by the rules under gasoline. Some of the cars are used for other events that allow e85 and no exhaust. I think its funny that there are cars out there that would race the class if the rules were a little more open so a guy does not have to change his car every weekend to race different events.



If somebody could pm when it is time to vote I would appreciate it. I do not own a turbo buick anymore and I do not visit this site that often. Thanks Tom

 

[Grandpa George]

Just for clarity, can we have a clearer definition of Rule #6 regarding " Turbo mounting "

Rule # 6 Turbo must be located within the factory engine compartment.

No part of the turbo can be mounted forward of the factory core support.

George

 

[lrayzer]

Just for clarity, can we have a clearer definition of Rule #6 regarding " Turbo mounting "

Rule # 6 Turbo must be located within the factory engine compartment.

No part of the turbo can be mounted forward of the factory core support.

George

I would take that to mean if the factory wheel wells etc were there the turbo could not occupy that space, other than that shift it where it fits, not limited to stock location, also the bell cannot be in the grille, thru hood, fender etc.

 

[Grandpa George]

I interpret it, that " no part of the turbo", including the bell, can be situated ahead of the stock location rad support ( core ), not the grill. Am I missing something here ?

I guess it could be argued that the mounting bolts are situated behind the rad support, even if the entire rest of the turbo is ahead off the rad support. I think that would be a real stretch, but with the controversey over the gasoline rule ( E85 ) I think we need to bring clarity to some of the wording of the rules.

George

 

[gnxtc2]

I interpret it, that " no part of the turbo", including the bell, can be situated ahead of the stock location rad support ( core ), not the grill. Am I missing something here ?

I guess it could be argued that the mounting bolts are situated behind the rad support, even if the entire rest of the turbo is ahead off the rad support. I think that would be a real stretch, but with the controversey over the gasoline rule ( E85 ) I think we need to bring clarity to some of the wording of the rules.

George

I guess we all need to be lawyers and throw out the "intent" of the rule.

What part of the rad support....top/bottom???? The rad support is approximately 6"-8" wide. Or what if one goes with a tubular rad support? Does it have to break the plane of the rad support or could the entire turbo be in the rad support???

What do you do now? Where do you place the turbo?

Another to remember, these cars are going faster than 8.50. A cage is good up to 8.50 then after that you need to go with 25.4/5 to be legal. With the amount of bars needed to go with a 25.4/5 cage, it's going to be difficult to abide with some of the rules. Since this is the time for rule changes, the 25.4/5 spec should be taken into consideration.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Grandpa George]

Hey Billy, you're right about the cars getting faster and faster. $$$$$$$$$$ so the rules will probably need to be gone over in depth to avoid misunderstandings or minipulation.

As for the rad support, the existing rules state ... the STOCK rad support ( Core )

George

 

[baadgn]

Just for clarity, can we have a clearer definition of Rule #6 regarding " Turbo mounting "

Rule # 6 Turbo must be located within the factory engine compartment.

No part of the turbo can be mounted forward of the factory core support.

George

The rule states where the turbo is MOUNTED if the turbo is mounted at or behind the the rad support its legal. Fwiw because we are not required to keep stock oriantation to place a restriction on turbo location is sorta silly. The rule should read no part of the turbo can stick out past the body. Fwiw my turbo is stock oriantation..... complete turbo behind rad support.

P.s. Calls were made by a TSO racer to other TSO racers to see if they had an issue with how that turbo would be mounted and was pretty much told no go ahead and do it but.......... be prepared for future arguments

 

[Grandpa George]

Tony, it doesn't matter to me really, but the rule states also that "NO PART OF THE TURBO" can be mounted forward of the core support. As I said in my previous post, " it can be argued that ..... etc. etc.

I think that's why a few of the rules need to be very clear with no room for misinterpretation or " arguments " I love the creativity of new ideas that break new barriers etc. but when you choose a class to run, build the car to fit the existing rules ( as far as they can be interpreted correctly ) or change the rules.

respectfully,

George

 

[Tweeked6]

The rules can be as clear as possible and they will still be ignored I think.

 

[HighPSI]

I apprciate all the discussion. My intent when I wrote (or copied) a rule isn't always the way a racer will take it. Being a former TSO participant, I always looked for any loophole that provided an advantage to me. The "grey areas" are what cause all the problems in peer tech. Fortunatly, the last few years haven't been anything like the wars we had years ago.

As I see things so far, the following rule changes are being proposed:

#1 Exhaust rule: Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count

#3 Allow E85 Fuel

I have had some other suggestions but unless they are posted here by an eligible racer, we won't vote on them. Some that come to mind were: not allowing wheelie bars, making all TSO races 1/8th mile, removing liquid weight penalty, etc..

Are there any other rule changes you guys want to propose before we go to a vote?

 

[gnxtc2]

I apprciate all the discussion. My intent when I wrote (or copied) a rule isn't always the way a racer will take it. Being a former TSO participant, I always looked for any loophole that provided an advantage to me. The "grey areas" are what cause all the problems in peer tech. Fortunatly, the last few years haven't been anything like the wars we had years ago.



Are there any other rule changes you guys want to propose before we go to a vote?

- Weight break for smaller turbos

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[HighPSI]

How much of a weight break are you proposing?

 

[baadgn]

As I see things so far, the following rule changes are being proposed:

#1 Exhaust rule: Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count

#3 Allow E85 Fuel

I have had some other suggestions but unless they are posted here by an eligible racer, we won't vote on them. Some that come to mind were: not allowing wheelie bars, making all TSO races 1/8th mile, removing liquid weight penalty, etc..

I think the liquid IC penalty needs to be revisited its been run for 2 years now with no clear advantage..... No other outlaw class penalizes liquid IC. Just somthing to think about.

P.S Just so everyone doesnt think im trying to be sneeky I will be running a Liquid IC.

 

[HighPSI]

Updated list:

#1 Exhaust rule: Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count

#3 Allow E85 Fuel

#4 Weight break for smaller turbos. Billy still need to say how much before we can vote on it

Tony suggested removing the weight penalty for liquid intercoolers, but I'll leave that up to you guys to propose it (Don, Brad?)

I would like to get this wrapped up, so you guys have a chance to make any adjustments before the first race.

 

[Grandpa George]

I'm having a hard time getting my head around the "no clear advantage" of a liquid intercooler. Being able to lower your intake air temps by 50 degrees or more on a hot day certainly is an advantage whether it's realized on a certain combination or not.

As far as exhaust systems are concerned, I thought the mandatory muffler requirement was to help keep the " street element " in Turbo Street Outlaw " mind you, these cars are so far from being street cars ............. LOL

Just a couple of thoughts,

George

 

[Brad T]

Updated list:

#1 Exhaust rule: Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count

#3 Allow E85 Fuel

#4 Weight break for smaller turbos. Billy still need to say how much before we can vote on it

Tony suggested removing the weight penalty for liquid intercoolers, but I'll leave that up to you guys to propose it (Don, Brad?)

Lets remove the weight penalty for liquid intercoolers .

 

[lrayzer]

As far as exhaust systems are concerned, I thought the mandatory muffler requirement was to help keep the " street element " in Turbo Street Outlaw " mind you, these cars are so far from being street cars ............. LOL

Just a couple of thoughts,

George[/quote]
In my book a turbo is a muffler...my car is still not done, so no dog in the fight yet, just keeping tabs with how outdated I will be.

 

[HighPSI]

Updated list:

#1 Exhaust rule: Need to allow any type any exit with out muffler

#2 if a car is not legal in the class then it should not be allowed to qualify or run eliminations regardless of event car count

#3 Allow E85 Fuel

#4 Weight break for smaller turbos. Billy still need to say how much before we can vote on it

#5 Remove weight penalty for liquid intercoolers

Just waiting on Billy, then I will post up the proposals with the correct verbage.

 

[gnxtc2]

What I'm going to propose is going to be a tough weight to make w/o totally gutting the car.

Current weights are:
TSL is 3400
TSO is 3250

I propose to make it 3000 with a smaller turbo. Most of the times the TSL cars jump into TSO to make car count. Currently the max turbo size in TSL is a 42-76.

The exhaust rule should read:
Any exhaust/downpipe allowed. Muffler(s) optional.

I also propose add 50lbs for wheelie bars.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com