224 Stage I Single Turbo Buick V6 does the impossible. 8.76 @ 158.7

[Alky V6]

No i dont... cause it told you feed more nitrous to your NC convertor and it will work remember ? it was "VERY CLEAR" did you forget that you have a 91 turbo at 31# of boost with 400hp of nitrous running on alcohol feeding them heads

If you've followed my threads as closely as you act like you do, then you'd know that I switched from the NC before I completed my work setting up the nitrous system. Especially the AB, which is what pushed the nitrous system to over the 400 mark. Before that, 365. Go back and do more reading, Tony.

 

[HighPSI]

To add to the above. When you look at some of my customer logs, the rpm line will seem very flat like the engine isn't accelerating. To the untrained eye you would think the converter is slowing the car down because it's not gaining rpm.

But if you have enough data logging equipment, you will see that the converter is holding the engine in it's usable power range as the converter continually couples. This puts more power to the tires without dropping the engine out of it's power range.

I have seen this first hand. On the first pull on the dyno with Louie L's GN we left the boost as low as it would go. The car would not rev over 5000 rpm until the tire speed got pretty high. As we turned up the boost, the delay became less and less. What's cool is he can spool the car on a pro tree with no problem, yet run 178mph at 30psi. When I tune a car, I can almost always tell when I look at the log if the car has a PTC convertor.

 

[Alky V6]

Look at your logs. The rpm the engine drops back to should always be the same at a given power level.

If you shift at 7000 and it drops to 6500, it should also drop to 6500 when you shift at 7500. That's because the true flash stall of the converter is 6500. You should also see that the rpm will climb quickly after launch to 6500 before the rpm begins to flatline. This is where the converter is coupling and pulling the engine down. 6500 will be the true stall of the converter.

Keeping the engine in it's rpm range is where the rpm drop comes into play. If the engine needs to turn 7500 to make peak power, a tight converter that only flashes to 6000 will most likely slow the car down. Sure the slip may be low but the car will e.t faster with a looser converter. This could very well be the case with your combo. A converter that slips only 4% will put more power to the tires but it won't necessarily make it faster.

I'll look at that more carefully.

 

[baadgn]

If you've followed my threads as closely as you act like you do, then you'd know that I switched from the NC before I completed my work setting up the nitrous system. Especially the AB, which is what pushed the nitrous system to over the 400 mark. Before that, 365. Go back and do more reading, Tony.

So then its an easy and free fix put the NC back in now that you are using 400 hp and problem solved less slip !!!! you talk in circles and hang yourself every time......

 

[Alky V6]

To add to the above. When you look at some of my customer logs, the rpm line will seem very flat like the engine isn't accelerating. To the untrained eye you would think the converter is slowing the car down because it's not gaining rpm.

But if you have enough data logging equipment, you will see that the converter is holding the engine in it's usable power range as the converter continually couples. This puts more power to the tires without dropping the engine out of it's power range.

Yes. I suspected that was possible. In my case, the rpm continues to climb at a slow rate.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I have seen this first hand. On the first pull on the dyno with Louie L's GN we left the boost as low as it would go. The car would not rev over 5000 rpm until the tire speed got pretty high. As we turned up the boost, the delay became less and less. What's cool is he can spool the car on a pro tree with no problem, yet run 178mph at 30psi. When I tune a car, I can almost always tell when I look at the log if the car has a PTC convertor.

Good post. At that low boost level the converter was flashing to 5000rpm. So once the converter was fully coupled, the engine would then start building rpm.

As you increased the boost, the converter stalled higher and would push through that coupling point quicker and quicker.

 

[Alky V6]

Since I consider myself somewhat of a tuner, I am interested in your ecu. Does it also have the ability to datalog digital or analog inputs? Are you recording backpressure? I'm sure it's posted in one of your other threads, but tell me again what brand it is.

Electromotive TEC3r converted for WinTEC4 software using the latest WinTEC4 version for this configuration. I would have to check the latest manual information for this firmware and software version to tell you on the A versus D.
I just checked and there is a speed input channel that's available that asks for a pulses per revolution parameter.

 

[Alky V6]

What is that you do for a living again.... im sorry that you have other people do for you because of your success. Remember don you started this post so beating is what your going to get a little bit at a time using quotes of your own words. I told some time ago dont try to rub are noses in your crap when are you going to GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep it coming, Tony. You're useful for bringing up my old reference material when it's needed. Thank you.
But, try to be more accurate. You've made a big mistake on one of the references already.

 

[Alky V6]

What does the rpm drop to on both of these shift points?

Does the boost fall when you shift it higher? Like the engine is having a hard time recovering from a massive rpm drop?

I'll post that datalog I promised. Packing up to go home. Finally got to this page.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

11pm out here.......off to bed. I'll check back tomorrow

 

[Alky V6]

So then its an easy and free fix put the NC back in now that you are using 400 hp and problem solved less slip !!!! you talk in circles and hang yourself every time......

I'm suspecting the same thing as Dusty, which is why I've been reluctant to do that.
I hope you're reading, and more importantly, comprehending Dusty's posts too.

 

[baadgn]

Keep it coming, Tony. You're useful for bringing up my old reference material when it's needed. Thank you.
But, try to be more accurate. You've made a big mistake on one of the references already.

Well if its a big mistake then i owe you a big APPOLOGY I make mistakes. like we all see you make too. sim or no sim... it just takes a MAN to admit it

 

[baadgn]

I'm suspecting the same thing as Dusty, which is why I've been reluctant to do that.
I hope you're reading, and more importantly, comprehending Dusty's posts too.

OH dont worry i understand convertors..... whats been made plane and simple here is that you have no clue about how they work and couple up and would rather waste money you dont have "your words not mine" than listen to somone who does we told u long ago call dusty but your sim spit out the crap your running now.

 

[Alky V6]

Well if its a big mistake then i owe you a big APPOLOGY I make mistakes. like we all see you make too. sim or no sim... it just takes a MAN to admit it

So, in your mind you think I'm making a mistake with my experimenting?

 

[Alky V6]

OH dont worry i understand convertors..... whats been made plane and simple here is that you have no clue about how they work and couple up and would rather waste money you dont have "your words not mine" than listen to somone who does we told u long ago call dusty but your sim spit out the crap your running now.

I think, according to what Dusty has posted, which is what I also believe, you may be judging this torque converter too soon.

Sorry, Tony. Your stuff isn't keeping my interest. I'm going to bed. I'll work on posting that datalog for the others tomorrow. Have a happy night.

 

[Alky V6]

What does the rpm drop to on both of these shift points?

Does the boost fall when you shift it higher? Like the engine is having a hard time recovering from a massive rpm drop?

I was going over the thread to see if there were any questions I missed during the frenzy last night.

The rpm has dropped to different points lately. I can't give a specific rpm. I can say that it hasn't dropped below about 6250 and has dropped to 7000 at times. I've been working on the launch lately, so rpm drop at the shifts has not been my focus. Now, I think I have the launch tune straightened out and the next area will be the roll out and the 1-2 shift. I'll try to start looking for a more consistent number on the rpm drop. It's hard when you're fighting with tire traction on the shifts. As I work on the roll out and 1-2 shift tuneup settings, the rpm drop number should become more clear.

The boost does not fall when I shift it higher. At times (been pretty often lately), I've had to quick shift to 3rd due to traction issues in 2nd, and the rpm drops even lower than normal. Still, boost does not drop. I think I've had the rpm down to the mid 5000s and the boost maintains. Once the boost has built to a certain point, it seems that only with less throttle will the boost drop. The higher boost levels do not seem to be closely tied to rpm. At least, the normal rpm range that you would expect to see even with emergency short shifting. That is something that has impressed me about this setup.
If I do have to back out of the throttle a lot for an emergency reason, when I get back into it, pow, the boost is right back. Another point that has surprised me about this turbo. Probably the BOV just doing its job.

 

[Otto J]

imo if you want the tires to stick better through first gear and down the track,stop looking at the electronics and start looking at suspension/tires.
You are not nearly putting down enough power in the first 300-600 feet that a 10.5 slick shoud not stay planted.
There are cars running in the mid 7s on true 10" tires.

 

[Alky V6]

Correct. The rpm is fluctuating through second gear. It's possible it could be a slipping 2nd clutch, but I don't think so. I've checked the fluid and it looks and smells like brand new. Still, that doesn't always rule out a slipping clutch. The fluctuation settles right down after the shift to third.
Usually, when I lower the boost a little for second gear, the fluctuation stops. On the PB run at Firebird, the controller numbers were on the high side. I was spending the whole day lowering controller numbers from the settings that were working for me at the home track. Firebird just wasn't hooking as good as home that day.

I should also add that I'm pretty positive it's tire slip with all the steering correction that's happening. I usually get more than a few comments after a loose run from individuals that pretty much confirms that the car was "all over the track".
One funny comment I remember from the last time out with the car. A person came up to me and asked if I had made a run yet that day. Another fella that was standing there that I had been talking with told him, "Yeah. He ran both lanes on that run." It wasn't really that bad. I was able to dodge the center cones at least, and it did not cross into the other lane. :biggrin:
Raymond and my wife can confirm some of those runs. The wife was a little bent that I didn't get out of it. She was right.

 

[Alky V6]

imo if you want the tires to stick better through first gear out down the electronics and start looking at suspension/tires.
You are not nearly putting down enough power in the first 300 feet that a 10.5 slick shoud not stay planted.
There are cars running in the mid 7s on true 10" tires.

I think you're right. That is the next area I plan on working on. It's also one of those things where I'm going to need to get accustomed to the new 'yank'. My senses need to catch up with the car (star wars affect), so I'm pumping it up slowly. I don't want to make the mistake of notching it up too much and being sorry for it. If you know what I mean.
Just this last time out with the car, I had a couple tuners that frequent the track, come up to me pretty enthusiastically, asking what the heck I did with the car. Even the spectators are noticing that the car is yanking out of the hole harder. I have to admit, there were a couple launches where the nitrous reactivated just as the transbrake released that caught me off guard. The tires definitely carried further than usual. That is the launch I want to get used to.
Imagine being staged at 5400 rpm/175 kPa map and just as the transbrake releases, a 400+ hp shot of nitrous kicks you in the ass!

 

[Alky V6]

Here's another story I was told of just yesterday, that I thought was fun to hear.
The tech inspector and the racing director at the track happened to be at the front of the staging lanes talking with each other when my car came up for a run. I'm sure it was one of the two last runs of the day. The 5.67 runs. The yankers.
The tech inspector, who also is the owner of a company that we do business with came by the shop yesterday and told me this story. He came by the shop just to congratulate me on the latest progress with the car. That was cool of him.
Anyway, the story continues like this, Steve noticed the car staging and was telling Cliff, "You know, if Donnie ever gets that thing to hook, that car's going to be a bullet." Then the car launched... Holy ####!
He ended his short visit to the shop with, "Don't think people aren't watching what you're doing with that car."
I replied, "Yeah, too bad they also have to witness all the bust runs too, when I'm experimenting with the tuneup."

You don't fall across the bitchin tuneups without taking the chance and trying new things with the tuneup. It will make you look like a fool to others sometimes, but it can also be very rewarding when you stumble on one.