224 Stage I Single Turbo Buick V6 does the impossible. 8.76 @ 158.7
- Thread starter Alky V6
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Entertaining thread, isn't it?
Wait 'till you see the datalog. You're going to say to yourself, "He did an 8.76 with that!?"
Raymond Bunch
"Turbo Enthusiast"
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2002
- Messages
- 3,455
Yes Sir, on more than one occation I have see Donnie run both lanes. His car really seems to get out of shape on the top end, probably when that turbo really starts to wake up. On this note; I love listning to debates too, and I'm learning a LOT from all of you. But, please let's continue to be civil, were all brothers/sister on this site. :smile:
Thanks, Mr.Spool.
Here is the datalog. I cropped out the start of the nitrous hit.
It's difficult to tell where the launch actually occurred. I don't have a marker that shows where the transbrake was released.
The dip in the map was set in the boost controller. As you can see, I didn't have the dip soon enough to help control tire slip in second.
The a/f mixture trace is interesting. Ever since I repaired some nitrous nozzles that were crossleaking, the a/f trace has been a lot different. The test and tune date, that was after this Pinks event is where I finally started to get the a/f mixture reeled back in. Close to 10% more fuel was added.
The lean surging that was occurring at the end of the run was mainly due to the boost getting out of hand and causing a high fuel demand from a fuel supply system that was already at the edge. There must have been an angel on my shoulder, because no damage occurred from this extreme lean condition. Obviously, there was a large performance loss during this particular time span, which was about two seconds.
Here is the datalog. I cropped out the start of the nitrous hit.
It's difficult to tell where the launch actually occurred. I don't have a marker that shows where the transbrake was released.
The dip in the map was set in the boost controller. As you can see, I didn't have the dip soon enough to help control tire slip in second.
The a/f mixture trace is interesting. Ever since I repaired some nitrous nozzles that were crossleaking, the a/f trace has been a lot different. The test and tune date, that was after this Pinks event is where I finally started to get the a/f mixture reeled back in. Close to 10% more fuel was added.
The lean surging that was occurring at the end of the run was mainly due to the boost getting out of hand and causing a high fuel demand from a fuel supply system that was already at the edge. There must have been an angel on my shoulder, because no damage occurred from this extreme lean condition. Obviously, there was a large performance loss during this particular time span, which was about two seconds.
Attachments
I'm not sure. I'm still learning the chassis side of it.
I have come to learn this. As I've increased the launch performance, I've been able to get away with more boost at the 1-2 shift and through 2nd gear.
At lower launch power levels, I was lucky to get through the 1-2 shift with only 210-220 kPa MAP. In this datalog, you can see that the MAP was at 289 kPa at the start of the 1-2 shift.
It is kind of difficult to read, but here's my observations:
It appears to be starting the pass pegged rich, then going real, real lean at the big end. So lean, that it is actually causing the car to miss as it reaches 33psi. The rpm log looks absolutly terrible.
I did some research on the system you are running and it looks like it has the ability to log analog sensors. It also looks like you would be able to use another input for a transbrake flag. Since this doesn't cost anything and also gives you more information, I am suprised you aren't logging more parameters
Thanks for posting
It appears to be starting the pass pegged rich, then going real, real lean at the big end. So lean, that it is actually causing the car to miss as it reaches 33psi. The rpm log looks absolutly terrible.
I did some research on the system you are running and it looks like it has the ability to log analog sensors. It also looks like you would be able to use another input for a transbrake flag. Since this doesn't cost anything and also gives you more information, I am suprised you aren't logging more parameters
Thanks for posting
There are more parameters. A total of 37. These are just the parameters I called up for display. If I displayed them all at once, it would be a garbled mess.It is kind of difficult to read, but here's my observations:
It appears to be starting the pass pegged rich, then going real, real lean at the big end. So lean, that it is actually causing the car to miss as it reaches 33psi. The rpm log looks absolutly terrible.
I did some research on the system you are running and it looks like it has the ability to log analog sensors. It also looks like you would be able to use another input for a transbrake flag. Since this doesn't cost anything and also gives you more information, I am suprised you aren't logging more parameters
Thanks for posting
The pegged rich is the affect of the nitrous hit. You can see the timing beginning to come back in at the start of the screen after the nitrous has shut down. The a/f meter takes a little time to recover from the very rich nitrous hit.
You can see a small lean spike as the aux fueling is activated. You can also see the e injector pw being pulled back at the same time.
I have 3 GPIs available with this system. 2 are being used, with the DSS soon to take the 3rd.
So, what do you think?
I don't have any amount of experience reading datalogs from a variety of different high performance builds. This car has been my only true experience with tuning a high performance aftermarket EFI system, and turbocharged to boot. This engine is the 3rd version of only the 2nd major personal engine build in my lifetime to date. My first major engine build, if you can call it that, was in my high school years where I built a n/a 12.5:1 307 SBC. That engine also seemed to surprise a lot of people. But then, we were all just kids back then.
And just imagine. This engine was worked out on a sim. That, to me, is absolutely amazing.
One thing I do have a lot of experience doing is reading the datalogs on this car. The sort of things I look for when I come back to the pits and examine a datalog are;
Do all the parameters look within expected norms? Basically, just looking for the possibility of a faulty sensor or other problem with a parameter.
What does the a/f ratio look like through the burnout and during the run? Looking for overly rich or lean spots that need correction.
Did a different a/f mixture ratio create an improvement or not in et/mph?
What does the nitrous hit look like? How has any recent changes to the nitrous tuneup changed the rpm and map rise rates? Are benchmark rpm and map rise rate targets being met or surpassed, and with what sort of a/f ratio readings? What sort of a/f mixture ratios are happening during nitrous activation and after deactivation?
What are the nitrous activation and deactivation points? Are they as expected?
What does the aux fueling activation timing look like? Lean or rich bumps? Does the aux fueling activation timing need adjustment? Did the transition upset the engine rpm?
Are there signs of tire slippage besides what I may have felt on the track?
What were the shift rpms? How does the timeslip compare to the shift points? Did a higher or lower shift point change the expected timeslip results?
What do the rpm drops look like? What boost levels created these rpm drop numbers?
Was the shift clean, but then tire slippage started after the completion of the shift?
Does the MAP rise and dips look as expected with the boost controller settings being used?
How well did the boost controller settings match with the shift points? Did a mismatch of the boost controller settings and the shift points cause tire spin?
What were the rpms at the beginning and end of the run? This can determine if a TC is going away or a trans clutch is slipping. Or, even weather conditions. It can also show how much more the engine is pushing the TC if there was a prior change to the boost level, or if a final drive gear change is needed.
What was the MAT rise like? Checking intercooler or heat sink performance.
Lately, I've drained the liquid intercooler due to a leak that developed right before the Pinks event. Yeah, that was hairy. There I was getting ready to string the car out in the quarter with a tuneup that was dialed in with a functioning liquid intercooler. Now just a heat sink that was even less efficient than an air to air.
TPS. Were there any points in the run where I haired and backed out of the throttle? If I did, did I have good reason too? Such as tire slippage.
Is there room for improvement? If the rpm line looks good, could we pinch the boost up here or there? Is there an a/f mixture problem that's holding back performance anywhere? Does the setup look capable of creating more boost or has the boost/performance leveled out?
As I stated earlier, I don't have much experience reading datalogs from a wide variety of different performance builds, but I have to say, that after reading this datalog that I posted, I came to the quick conclusion that there is A LOT still on the table with this engine.
Am I wrong?
I don't have any amount of experience reading datalogs from a variety of different high performance builds. This car has been my only true experience with tuning a high performance aftermarket EFI system, and turbocharged to boot. This engine is the 3rd version of only the 2nd major personal engine build in my lifetime to date. My first major engine build, if you can call it that, was in my high school years where I built a n/a 12.5:1 307 SBC. That engine also seemed to surprise a lot of people. But then, we were all just kids back then.
And just imagine. This engine was worked out on a sim. That, to me, is absolutely amazing.
One thing I do have a lot of experience doing is reading the datalogs on this car. The sort of things I look for when I come back to the pits and examine a datalog are;
Do all the parameters look within expected norms? Basically, just looking for the possibility of a faulty sensor or other problem with a parameter.
What does the a/f ratio look like through the burnout and during the run? Looking for overly rich or lean spots that need correction.
Did a different a/f mixture ratio create an improvement or not in et/mph?
What does the nitrous hit look like? How has any recent changes to the nitrous tuneup changed the rpm and map rise rates? Are benchmark rpm and map rise rate targets being met or surpassed, and with what sort of a/f ratio readings? What sort of a/f mixture ratios are happening during nitrous activation and after deactivation?
What are the nitrous activation and deactivation points? Are they as expected?
What does the aux fueling activation timing look like? Lean or rich bumps? Does the aux fueling activation timing need adjustment? Did the transition upset the engine rpm?
Are there signs of tire slippage besides what I may have felt on the track?
What were the shift rpms? How does the timeslip compare to the shift points? Did a higher or lower shift point change the expected timeslip results?
What do the rpm drops look like? What boost levels created these rpm drop numbers?
Was the shift clean, but then tire slippage started after the completion of the shift?
Does the MAP rise and dips look as expected with the boost controller settings being used?
How well did the boost controller settings match with the shift points? Did a mismatch of the boost controller settings and the shift points cause tire spin?
What were the rpms at the beginning and end of the run? This can determine if a TC is going away or a trans clutch is slipping. Or, even weather conditions. It can also show how much more the engine is pushing the TC if there was a prior change to the boost level, or if a final drive gear change is needed.
What was the MAT rise like? Checking intercooler or heat sink performance.
Lately, I've drained the liquid intercooler due to a leak that developed right before the Pinks event. Yeah, that was hairy. There I was getting ready to string the car out in the quarter with a tuneup that was dialed in with a functioning liquid intercooler. Now just a heat sink that was even less efficient than an air to air.
TPS. Were there any points in the run where I haired and backed out of the throttle? If I did, did I have good reason too? Such as tire slippage.
Is there room for improvement? If the rpm line looks good, could we pinch the boost up here or there? Is there an a/f mixture problem that's holding back performance anywhere? Does the setup look capable of creating more boost or has the boost/performance leveled out?
As I stated earlier, I don't have much experience reading datalogs from a wide variety of different performance builds, but I have to say, that after reading this datalog that I posted, I came to the quick conclusion that there is A LOT still on the table with this engine.
Am I wrong?
Just one point.
Even though the engine was massively leaned out on the top end, and lean surging, look at the MAP. Holy cow! The turbo was saying, "Come on you *****. Let's go!" No drop in MAP during that kind of condition?!!!
I think this engine will be very capable of pushing the boost with this turbo to, let me put it this way, very interesting levels.
Even though the engine was massively leaned out on the top end, and lean surging, look at the MAP. Holy cow! The turbo was saying, "Come on you *****. Let's go!" No drop in MAP during that kind of condition?!!!
I think this engine will be very capable of pushing the boost with this turbo to, let me put it this way, very interesting levels.
You are going about reviewing the logs correctly. I don't think you will really be able to get the chasis sorted out with the limited information you have. After seeing the boost in the log, I looked up your boost controller settings and don't think you are really using all those stages the way you might think you are. Also, I could be wrong since I didn't plug the actual values into a controller, but after a quick review it appears a couple of target boost setting may not be attainable. I may be mistaken and I'm sure you wil let me know if I am 
Actually, I am suprised you have such an in depth tuning guide to the controller without more information to guide your settings.
Actually, I am suprised you have such an in depth tuning guide to the controller without more information to guide your settings.Not a tuning guide. The name of that thread was me being sarcastic. I knew nothing about that unit when I started that thread. Let's not forget, I'm not a teacher here. Most threads I start are just my way of thinking out loud, sharing my experiences and logging progress or disaster. If people pick up something that is useful to them, then great. It was worthwhile then.You are going about reviewing the logs correctly. I don't think you will really be able to get the chasis sorted out with the limited information you have. After seeing the boost in the log, I looked up your boost controller settings and don't think you are really using all those stages the way you might think you are. Also, I could be wrong since I didn't plug the actual values into a controller, but after a quick review it appears a couple of target boost setting may not be attainable. I may be mistaken and I'm sure you wil let me know if I am
I understand what you mean by some of the boost targets in my controller settings maybe not being obtainable. In particular, the targets during the early stages. Who would expect a large shaft turbo such as a B/W S510 to react that fast.
The target numbers that I'm currently using for the early stages are numbers lower than numbers I have played with in the past. In other words, at the present tune level, I have no problem being able to build too much boost for the launch. Something I truly never thought would be a problem with this turbo. Yet, it is.
I would plug the numbers in and check the curve out first. I too look at the table and don't see how it comes up with the curve it does.
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Now back on topic...
Too funny, Shane!I was actually talking about not being able to reach the Target CO2 levels you are programming in the AMS. It appears you are not giving enough time in some stages for the ramp to actually acheive the target. I may be mistaken since I didn't actually plug the values into the controller.
I know in previous threads you mention you aren't really looking for advice and you do find it more rewarding when you go through the learning process yourself and come up with the answer on your own. My concern with this, is that in some of your threads it might "appear" that you are offering a sort of learners guide when some of the info may not be quite correct and someone might take it as gospel. After seeing here (a year and a half later) that you were being sarcastic about the AMS thread, I now understand your REAL intent.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 5,802
The turbo won't stop making boost due to those surging conditions unless a piston shoots through it
That turbo is enough to push well into the 7 second range in a 3200# car without issues. Probably 50# of boost or more on your motor.
Wow, this is something that I had never thought of before. My old car (Franks) flat lined and dipped in 3rd gear. I didn't have enough passes to tune it out, but was puzzled (and nervous) about possible causes - converter-trans-valvetrain . Now i'm convinced the converter was too tight and the engine wasn't in the correct operating range in 3rd. This one post (if it applies to my situation) was probably the single most important thing I've read on this board all year.
First of all, thanks Cal for encouraging me to waste 30mins of my life that I will never be able to get back.................
Congrats Donnie on your new personal best!
I'm contemplating trying the same engine management TEC3-r on my new twin turbo GS project. The only reservation I have at this point is the software appears to SUCK as well as the data logger when comparing to a FAST or BS3. If I stay the course with the TEC system I will run a separate PCS datalogger which can interface with the TEC via the RS232 port. This is the same company that makes the dash logger for FAST. This would be the equivalent of having the datalogging capabilities of the FAST system although it still wouldn't have the ability to spread everything you need out on one screen and overlay data onto tables. FWIW.
Couple of observations from all the BS........
I can attest to this. My RPM curves look relatively flat other than the shift changes but the ds rpm just continues to build. And like Dusty said, the rpm should always fall back to the true stall regardless of the shift points. You could save yourself a lot of headache and $$ if you let Dusty spec you a converter and improve your performance to boot. You will never get the perfect converter using NOS to spool a turbo - there will always be a certain amount of compromise. I speak from experience in using the juice with a BIG turbo.
BTW, my PTC calculated slip up top is around 4% I guess I need to install that tire growth sensor to see what it really is.
I noticed the same thing. Why do you feel you need to use all the available stages on the AMS if you don't necessarily need them?
Congrats Donnie on your new personal best!
I'm contemplating trying the same engine management TEC3-r on my new twin turbo GS project. The only reservation I have at this point is the software appears to SUCK as well as the data logger when comparing to a FAST or BS3. If I stay the course with the TEC system I will run a separate PCS datalogger which can interface with the TEC via the RS232 port. This is the same company that makes the dash logger for FAST. This would be the equivalent of having the datalogging capabilities of the FAST system although it still wouldn't have the ability to spread everything you need out on one screen and overlay data onto tables. FWIW.
Couple of observations from all the BS........
I can attest to this. My RPM curves look relatively flat other than the shift changes but the ds rpm just continues to build. And like Dusty said, the rpm should always fall back to the true stall regardless of the shift points. You could save yourself a lot of headache and $$ if you let Dusty spec you a converter and improve your performance to boot. You will never get the perfect converter using NOS to spool a turbo - there will always be a certain amount of compromise. I speak from experience in using the juice with a BIG turbo.
BTW, my PTC calculated slip up top is around 4%
I guess I need to install that tire growth sensor to see what it really is.I noticed the same thing. Why do you feel you need to use all the available stages on the AMS if you don't necessarily need them?
