What's hard about it?Fly me out for a visit and we can get it set up the way you want Donnie.:biggrin:
Just busting your chops but you really are learning the hard way. Wish you were closer because I'd sneek over for a visit and help you out.
8 second OEM 4 link drag race chassis setup
- Thread starter Alky V6
- Start date
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Been doing it since I was 19 Donnie and I'm still learning. I'm 47 now and am still learning. It has to do with weights and angles, which I'm sure you understand but it's not as easy as you think.:smile:
I realize there is much more to learn if one is setting up a road course or circle track car (cornering car), but so far, setting up a stock style, G body drag chassis is not proving to be a monumental task.
I've been pretty careful to document everything I'm doing so that others can follow and/or learn from this interesting task that I've taken on, and not one comment from anyone saying that I'm doing anything wrong. Including yourself, Charlie.
Look. There is only one good reason why there are so few chassis gurus out there. Like in so many other instances, people are just too plain lazy to learn how to do it themselves. Period. There are plenty of resources available for one to learn how to do this sort of thing themselves. Books, the internet, chassis parts suppliers with their wealth of knowledge. There is simply an overabundance of information on the subject, yet most people would rather just pay another to do something that they're more than capable of figuring out how to do themselves. Do not make the mistake of thinking that I'm one of those types of individuals. I have always thought that if you want something done right, you do it yourself.
I've taken a small headed, small V6 and clamped a large 91mm turbo to it and learned how to make it work, and doing eights with it. I'm injecting more than a 400 hp shot of nitrous/methanol into a small V6, and have made the process completely reliable. And some of you still think that I can't learn how to setup a simple G body drag chassis? REALLY!?
I am a firm believer that a person can do anything that he chooses to put his mind to. I have proven that to myself over and over again, throughout my life. I also believe that a person should not stop learning as time passes by. Use it,... or lose it.
Let me tell you a story about personal perseverence. This is one of the few times that I've told this story of personal triumph. This instance taught me that I could do anything that I chose to put my mind to.
A friend on mine that was formally learning Japanese swordsmanship, was teaching me a little on the side as he was learning the art. I had no formal martial arts training at the time, and have never since. This was over 25 years ago. I had bought a sword at a gun show some years previously, and had always been interested in martial arts, though I never took the time to formally study it.
This one time, my friend invited me to one of his classes where some of the students were going to attempt to cut through a rolled up floor mat stuck on a stick. It was to simulate slicing through a neck. This was a test that was only attempted after years of training with the sword.
You have to understand something, first. I had only been training with my friend for months, and felt like a fish out of water going to this class. For one thing, a person is not taught the sword unless he's already obtained a certain level of black belt status. I had no martial arts training, and this was actually frowned upon to think that I was being taught by a student on the side.
Anyway, I was invited to attempt to cut a rolled up mat. I was warned by my friend weeks before the class that I would be invited to attempt to cut, and had practiced on my form, alone, up to the time of this class. During my practicing, I had never attempted to cut through anything. This class would be my first attempt to cut anything at all.
I was warned by my friend to not worry if I was not successful. Even students that had practiced for years were not successful in their first attempts at trying to cut the mat. In fact, my friend had never seen it done by any of his classmates. A failed attempt is when the sword does not cut cleanly through the whole mat.
The day came and I was called up to attempt the cut. I positioned myself in front of the class, in front of this mat rolled up and stuck on a stick. I swung and sliced cleanly through the mat. It was like cutting through butter. I looked over at my friend who was standing next to his teacher. The look on my friends face.
The teacher stood there stone faced. The teacher whispered into my friends ear, and my friend then told me, "Do it again." I answered, "What?" He repeated, "Do it again."
I positioned myself in front of another mat on a stick. Took a deep breath, and swung my sword. Again, a clean slice. Like butter. Again, my friend was instructed to have me do it again. I followed his instruction on the next mat, and again, a clean cut.
It was on the fourth attempt that my sword stuck in the mat and didn't make a clean cut. The class was silent. No one said a word to me, or to each other for the remainder of the class.
After the class, my friend let me know that there were those that were a little PO'd at my feat. They had studied for years and still had not been able to achieve one clean cut, including my friend who had taught me.
You see, I had figured out, and practiced on my own how to swing the sword correctly to affect a clean cut. The secret is, if you can hear the sword in the air as you slice it, you're doing it wrong. The air should be silent as the sword slices through the air. That's how you know the sword is on a correct path.
On that day I learned, anything is possible.
A friend on mine that was formally learning Japanese swordsmanship, was teaching me a little on the side as he was learning the art. I had no formal martial arts training at the time, and have never since. This was over 25 years ago. I had bought a sword at a gun show some years previously, and had always been interested in martial arts, though I never took the time to formally study it.
This one time, my friend invited me to one of his classes where some of the students were going to attempt to cut through a rolled up floor mat stuck on a stick. It was to simulate slicing through a neck. This was a test that was only attempted after years of training with the sword.
You have to understand something, first. I had only been training with my friend for months, and felt like a fish out of water going to this class. For one thing, a person is not taught the sword unless he's already obtained a certain level of black belt status. I had no martial arts training, and this was actually frowned upon to think that I was being taught by a student on the side.
Anyway, I was invited to attempt to cut a rolled up mat. I was warned by my friend weeks before the class that I would be invited to attempt to cut, and had practiced on my form, alone, up to the time of this class. During my practicing, I had never attempted to cut through anything. This class would be my first attempt to cut anything at all.
I was warned by my friend to not worry if I was not successful. Even students that had practiced for years were not successful in their first attempts at trying to cut the mat. In fact, my friend had never seen it done by any of his classmates. A failed attempt is when the sword does not cut cleanly through the whole mat.
The day came and I was called up to attempt the cut. I positioned myself in front of the class, in front of this mat rolled up and stuck on a stick. I swung and sliced cleanly through the mat. It was like cutting through butter. I looked over at my friend who was standing next to his teacher. The look on my friends face.
The teacher stood there stone faced. The teacher whispered into my friends ear, and my friend then told me, "Do it again." I answered, "What?" He repeated, "Do it again."I positioned myself in front of another mat on a stick. Took a deep breath, and swung my sword. Again, a clean slice. Like butter. Again, my friend was instructed to have me do it again. I followed his instruction on the next mat, and again, a clean cut.
It was on the fourth attempt that my sword stuck in the mat and didn't make a clean cut. The class was silent. No one said a word to me, or to each other for the remainder of the class.
After the class, my friend let me know that there were those that were a little PO'd at my feat. They had studied for years and still had not been able to achieve one clean cut, including my friend who had taught me.
You see, I had figured out, and practiced on my own how to swing the sword correctly to affect a clean cut. The secret is, if you can hear the sword in the air as you slice it, you're doing it wrong. The air should be silent as the sword slices through the air. That's how you know the sword is on a correct path.
On that day I learned, anything is possible.
Ah... Grasshopper
Donnie, if I have learned anything from you..... it is that you are diligent, and will explore each and every avenue to achieve your goal.
I have no doubt that you can be successful at anything you put your mind to.
I particularly enjoy your success with your "little motor" and find enjoyment in proving the doubters wrong!
Please continue, as we all learn from your adventures.
Thanks
Lee
Donnie, if I have learned anything from you..... it is that you are diligent, and will explore each and every avenue to achieve your goal.
I have no doubt that you can be successful at anything you put your mind to.
I particularly enjoy your success with your "little motor" and find enjoyment in proving the doubters wrong!
Please continue, as we all learn from your adventures.
Thanks
Lee
TurboTnZ06
Go on red!
- Joined
- May 7, 2002
- Messages
- 3,847
Swing a sword 1000 times in a row and you'll figure out your own correct way, no matter what instruction you may have.
But if this guy shown below was a suspension expert instead of slicing peas sideways drawing his sword, then he might be able to setup your suspension the first time the best it could possibly be.
[YOUTUBE]nj1Jytiw8e0[/YOUTUBE]
But if this guy shown below was a suspension expert instead of slicing peas sideways drawing his sword, then he might be able to setup your suspension the first time the best it could possibly be.
[YOUTUBE]nj1Jytiw8e0[/YOUTUBE]
Thanks, Lee.
Can you imagine how much practice time the above swordsman has into his craft? Practice and experience, practice and experience, practice and experience.
No one starts out as a master in anything. Everyone first starts out with a small seed of desire to learn.
As far as anything to do with my car, I'm in no hurry and enjoy doing my own work too much to have someone else do it for me, so I'm sure I'll get the chassis ironed out sooner than later. Like I've already stated, it's not rocket science, and the chassis was already pretty close to begin with.
Can you imagine how much practice time the above swordsman has into his craft? Practice and experience, practice and experience, practice and experience.
No one starts out as a master in anything. Everyone first starts out with a small seed of desire to learn.
As far as anything to do with my car, I'm in no hurry and enjoy doing my own work too much to have someone else do it for me, so I'm sure I'll get the chassis ironed out sooner than later. Like I've already stated, it's not rocket science, and the chassis was already pretty close to begin with.
Summary of changes to date
Total vehicle weight: 3290.5 lbs. with suited driver and full fuel cell load (15 gallons).
Percentage of weight on the rear axle: 45.75%
Percentage of weight on the left side: 51.57%
CG height = 21.7"
Starting weight distribution;
LF 955.5, RF 829.5
LR 741.5, RR 764.0
Present weight distribution;
LF 978.2, RF 806.6
LR 718.5, RR 786.7
LF spring preload increased 1/8".
RR spring preload increased with a .508" spacer under the spring and the stock rubber cushion at the top.
Ride heights equal in the front, 1/8" higher at the RR than the LR, with driver, helmet and fuel.
LR AS% set at 62% with choices of 62, 82.2, 99, 117.7. LLCA is slightly angled downward.
RR AS% set at 120.7% with choices of 96, 120.7. RLCA is angled upward.
Dynamic roll control in effect.
Pinion angle is set at .9 degrees upward angle from horizontal in anticipation of a 1-1.5 degree axle wrap up.
Front shocks (QA1 SA) are being worked from max stiff towards loose. Right now, the adjustment is at 19 clicks from full soft. Both front shocks using the same settings.
Rear shocks (Afco DA) set the same at 16 clicks comp, 8 rebound.
Both front and rear shocks adjust firmer by turning CW from full CCW position.
Range of the front shocks is 0-24 clicks.
Range of the rear shocks is 0-?? clicks. Top knob for comp adjust, bottom for rebound.
Front extension travel limiters set at approximately 2" including bumper compression. On an even rise left to right, the RF leaves the ground (3/4") before the LF.
RB preload is 1/2 turn. Static weight on the RR is 786 lbs.
Rear tire pressure at 9.5 psi. Front at 35 psi.
Total vehicle weight: 3290.5 lbs. with suited driver and full fuel cell load (15 gallons).
Percentage of weight on the rear axle: 45.75%
Percentage of weight on the left side: 51.57%
CG height = 21.7"
Starting weight distribution;
LF 955.5, RF 829.5
LR 741.5, RR 764.0
Present weight distribution;
LF 978.2, RF 806.6
LR 718.5, RR 786.7
LF spring preload increased 1/8".
RR spring preload increased with a .508" spacer under the spring and the stock rubber cushion at the top.
Ride heights equal in the front, 1/8" higher at the RR than the LR, with driver, helmet and fuel.
LR AS% set at 62% with choices of 62, 82.2, 99, 117.7. LLCA is slightly angled downward.
RR AS% set at 120.7% with choices of 96, 120.7. RLCA is angled upward.
Dynamic roll control in effect.
Pinion angle is set at .9 degrees upward angle from horizontal in anticipation of a 1-1.5 degree axle wrap up.
Front shocks (QA1 SA) are being worked from max stiff towards loose. Right now, the adjustment is at 19 clicks from full soft. Both front shocks using the same settings.
Rear shocks (Afco DA) set the same at 16 clicks comp, 8 rebound.
Both front and rear shocks adjust firmer by turning CW from full CCW position.
Range of the front shocks is 0-24 clicks.
Range of the rear shocks is 0-?? clicks. Top knob for comp adjust, bottom for rebound.
Front extension travel limiters set at approximately 2" including bumper compression. On an even rise left to right, the RF leaves the ground (3/4") before the LF.
RB preload is 1/2 turn. Static weight on the RR is 786 lbs.
Rear tire pressure at 9.5 psi. Front at 35 psi.
The previous chassis setup also had 3 1/3 turns of RB preload. The old corner weights that I've listed do not include that RB preload. The RB was adjusted to neutral before weighing the corners. It's possible I simply traded some of the RB preload with static spring preload with the new chassis setup. The idea was to obtain a proper amount of RR corner static preload with the RB as close to neutral as possible. That mission has been accomplished.
The major change with this new chassis setup is the use of much more aggressive dynamic roll control with the use of asymmetrical 4 link settings.
As I've stated earlier in this thread, the Moser 12 bolt housing comes from Moser with a slight degree of roll control built into the LCA axle mounting hole locations relative to the axle centerline. I just increased the affect. The result of this particular adjustment will be the one to watch for in the upcoming launch videos.
The major change with this new chassis setup is the use of much more aggressive dynamic roll control with the use of asymmetrical 4 link settings.
As I've stated earlier in this thread, the Moser 12 bolt housing comes from Moser with a slight degree of roll control built into the LCA axle mounting hole locations relative to the axle centerline. I just increased the affect. The result of this particular adjustment will be the one to watch for in the upcoming launch videos.
I've done a little research on the internet on the subject of asymmetrical 4 link settings. There is a lot of theoretical talk on the subject, but not any practical application of it, that I could find. In fact, there is a lot of resistance to the idea that it would work. As usual, it looks like I'm going to be the guinea pig, again.
It's amazing that people are so skittish to give this idea a fair try.
Notice in the picture the different angles of the lower control arms.
It's amazing that people are so skittish to give this idea a fair try.
Notice in the picture the different angles of the lower control arms.
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Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 5,802
I'd rather see the pics of the car at ride height. Those pics with the rear hanging don't do anything other than make me question which off road truck those springs came off of:biggrin:
I prefer to use the ARB for all preload adjustments. This allows easy repeatable chassis changes if the car goes left or right.
I prefer to use the ARB for all preload adjustments. This allows easy repeatable chassis changes if the car goes left or right.
Are you saying you preferred my old setup?
The weight distribution between the LR and the RR corners with the old setup were;
LR 741.5, RR 764.0
This was not counting the 3 1/3 turns of preload supplied by the ARB.
I've found that with each 1/2 turn of the ARB I get about 10 lbs. of preload added to the RR.
3 1/3 turns of the ARB would equal about 67 lbs. of extra preload added to the 764 lbs. that I measured at the RR without ARB preload. Adding the ARB preload that's about 831 lbs. at the RR corner.
Maintaining the same % of total vehicle weight on the rear, that means the LR to RR weight distribution would be;
LR 674.5, RR 831
That is a difference of weight distribution LR to RR of 156.5 lbs.
22 lbs. of that is spring preload, the rest is ARB preload (134.5).
Remember, earlier I had calculated that I would need about 200 lbs. of preload on the RR without the help of asymmetrical 4 link tuning. With my old setup, I was getting pretty close to that 200 lbs. If I add in that other 2/3 turn of ARB preload that I had tried before cutting it back to 3 1/3, that would have put my RR total preload at about 170 lbs. Interesting, isn't it.
The new setup has the spring preload at;
LR 718.5, RR 786.7 including 1/2 turn of ARB preload.
The difference in weight distribution LR to RR is 68.2 lbs.
The old rear weight distribution (WD) difference was 156.5. The new rear WD difference is 68.2 lbs.
I'm willing to bet that after some initial testing, I'm going to need to add more ARB preload into the mix. The ARB will definitely remain an important chassis tuning tool, even with the new corner spring weight distribution arrangement. That is unless,... the new added asymmetrical 4 link settings add that additional needed rear WD preloading difference dynamically.
We could debate who's method is right all month long, but nothing beats track testing. We will see tomorrow. Besides, I'm sure there can be more than just one particular chassis setup that would give close to the same performance results.
LR 741.5, RR 764.0
This was not counting the 3 1/3 turns of preload supplied by the ARB.
I've found that with each 1/2 turn of the ARB I get about 10 lbs. of preload added to the RR.
3 1/3 turns of the ARB would equal about 67 lbs. of extra preload added to the 764 lbs. that I measured at the RR without ARB preload. Adding the ARB preload that's about 831 lbs. at the RR corner.
Maintaining the same % of total vehicle weight on the rear, that means the LR to RR weight distribution would be;
LR 674.5, RR 831
That is a difference of weight distribution LR to RR of 156.5 lbs.
22 lbs. of that is spring preload, the rest is ARB preload (134.5).
Remember, earlier I had calculated that I would need about 200 lbs. of preload on the RR without the help of asymmetrical 4 link tuning. With my old setup, I was getting pretty close to that 200 lbs. If I add in that other 2/3 turn of ARB preload that I had tried before cutting it back to 3 1/3, that would have put my RR total preload at about 170 lbs. Interesting, isn't it.
The new setup has the spring preload at;
LR 718.5, RR 786.7 including 1/2 turn of ARB preload.
The difference in weight distribution LR to RR is 68.2 lbs.
The old rear weight distribution (WD) difference was 156.5. The new rear WD difference is 68.2 lbs.
I'm willing to bet that after some initial testing, I'm going to need to add more ARB preload into the mix. The ARB will definitely remain an important chassis tuning tool, even with the new corner spring weight distribution arrangement. That is unless,... the new added asymmetrical 4 link settings add that additional needed rear WD preloading difference dynamically.
We could debate who's method is right all month long, but nothing beats track testing. We will see tomorrow. Besides, I'm sure there can be more than just one particular chassis setup that would give close to the same performance results.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 5,802
Not sure what all you changed. I saw where you were playing with the mounting holes and ic of the car.
I was only saying I prefer using the ARB for all preload adjustments. I square the front and rear with string, plumb bobs and measuring tape. Using the uppers and lowers to set the wheelbase, move the rear side to side and set pinion angle. Each time one bar is adjusted it can effect something else so it takes several times to get it right. Rear shocks and springs are set the same, front shocks and springs are set the same. Sit in the car and adjust the ARB to neutral. If the car goes left or right, adjust ARB. I only scale the car to see front to rear % to give me an idea of how much weight I may need on the front to keep it down. All ic changes are made from watching video of the tire hit.
Setting up a stock suspension car is really simple. Just takes a little time.
Have you measured to see about what your static weight distribution ended up being LR to RR after finishing a setup?
Have you figured out how much preload weight you're adding to the RR with one turn of ARB link adjustment?
About how many turns of ARB link preload are you typically having to use? I know it can change from track to track, but just an average or number you seem to commonly run across.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 5,802
I played with some settings when the car was on scales. I was chasing an issue which turned out to be the Wolfe anti roll bar. It was bent. I can't recall how much the weight changed with each round of preload.
My new TRZ anti-roll needed around 1.5 turns to get the car to go straight. This is at the current 4.7-4.8 at 155 power level. That amount can change based on the groove at the track. Some will tend to pull the car one direction or another. The other variable being how much power your putting through the chassis. As I turned the power up I had to pull more weight off the RR tire to keep the car going straight. As the chassis twists with extra power, the car will want to go left.
Once the car goes straight and hits the tire properly I have never put it back on the scales. As I mentioned. Weight l to r doesn't matter to me as long as it's going straight. I'm only curious about f to r. I have to be at least 52% on the nose to keep it down. Anything less just turns into a power wheelie. A good sticky track may need 54%
Good info, Dusty. It helps. Thanks for being so forthcoming with information.
I'm also using the TRZ bar, so it gives me a very good idea of how much preload you're having to use.
Interesting that you have to pull the preload out of it as performance level increases. Do you think maybe you have some sort of bump steer going on?
I'm also using the TRZ bar, so it gives me a very good idea of how much preload you're having to use.
Interesting that you have to pull the preload out of it as performance level increases. Do you think maybe you have some sort of bump steer going on?
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 5,802
I set the desired angle of the ARB with the driver side link, then adjust pre-load with the pass side link. If the car goes left I increase pre-load by shortening the pass side link, which removes weight from the rr tire. This keeps the car from pushing to the left.
First pass was a disaster. Pulled hard left whenever power was applied, and wandered left and right on the top end. 10 psi was used in the rears.
Before the next run, the AS on the left side was changed to 99%. The ARB set from 3 flats to zero preload. With these settings, there was still some pulling to the left when power was applied, and wandering left and right on the top end. The level of both were much less. 9 3/4 psi used in the rears.
Before the 3rd run, the AS on the left side was changed to 117.7%. The right side was left at 120.7%. The ARB was set to 3 flats of preload, and the rear tire pressure was changed to 9 1/2 psi. This run felt much the way the car handled with the old chassis settings.
The AS% combination and ARB setting eliminated the pull to the left under power, and the tire pressure eliminated the wandering left and right on the top end.
I've run across this before with the tire pressure. This car likes 9.5 psi with this tire and wheel combination. The wear pattern across the tread is also much more complete with this tire pressure.
The 60' on this pass was 1.28.
Trying to use the asymmetrical 4 link settings with the static preloads was definitely not the ticket. Would it work without static preloads? Don't know and don't plan to find out. I'm going to stick with preloads and leave the 4 link settings pretty much symmetrical from this point on.
As I suspected would happen, it seems I simply traded ARB preload for spring preloads with this new combination. Top end braking with this last settings combination was fine and felt the same as it felt with the old chassis settings.
The next test and tune will start out with the last settings I ended up with during this test and tune session.
Before the next run, the AS on the left side was changed to 99%. The ARB set from 3 flats to zero preload. With these settings, there was still some pulling to the left when power was applied, and wandering left and right on the top end. The level of both were much less. 9 3/4 psi used in the rears.
Before the 3rd run, the AS on the left side was changed to 117.7%. The right side was left at 120.7%. The ARB was set to 3 flats of preload, and the rear tire pressure was changed to 9 1/2 psi. This run felt much the way the car handled with the old chassis settings.
The AS% combination and ARB setting eliminated the pull to the left under power, and the tire pressure eliminated the wandering left and right on the top end.
I've run across this before with the tire pressure. This car likes 9.5 psi with this tire and wheel combination. The wear pattern across the tread is also much more complete with this tire pressure.
The 60' on this pass was 1.28.
Trying to use the asymmetrical 4 link settings with the static preloads was definitely not the ticket. Would it work without static preloads? Don't know and don't plan to find out. I'm going to stick with preloads and leave the 4 link settings pretty much symmetrical from this point on.
As I suspected would happen, it seems I simply traded ARB preload for spring preloads with this new combination. Top end braking with this last settings combination was fine and felt the same as it felt with the old chassis settings.
The next test and tune will start out with the last settings I ended up with during this test and tune session.
