It's not "tuners" ..its "tuna's" :biggrin:
Bad news upon pulling motor today
- Thread starter Phoneguy
- Start date
It's not "tuners" ..its "tuna's" :biggrin:
Slow small steps is best and cheapest in the long run.
Yes, I realize that not every member is a super tuner. It's pretty apparent though, which ones may be.
On the second question, I find it absolutely amazing that people have been experimenting with different levels of mixing fuels, pushing 109 blocks to the absolute limit, and this is the first serious discussion of spark plug design? With the talent that I think is on this board, I really hope that's not true.
I don't come here to solicit tuning business. I feel that there are more than a few on this board that do. I am totally surprised that the people that are making money off of some of the members here have not properly informed people of the importance of picking the right spark plug for the job.
To answer your question, Do I feel the "super tuners" should haev already explained this to all the non "super tuners". Oh,... I love this question. My answer to that is a big fat YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!
If you're making money off these people, supposedly helping them with their tuneups, why would you keep such basic tuning knowledge from these poor fellas. Are you just waiting for them to blow something up first, and then seek you out? Is there more money in it for you that way? Holy cow!
There is a thread in the Stage II section titled Spark Plugs. You guys should take the opportunity to turn it into a spark plug database for different heads, fueling, street, race, dual purpose, etc.
Anyone that has been having good luck with a particular plug should post up what they're using and an idea of their tuneup and performance level.
I really don't want to get into making suggestions for spark plugs. I don't have enough experience with what you guys are doing with all the different heads and tuneups to make an educated guess on an exact part number for you.
Here is the spark plug I'm in passionate love with. My darling.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/stage-ii-tech/347724-spark-plugs.html#post2789023
Anyone that has been having good luck with a particular plug should post up what they're using and an idea of their tuneup and performance level.
I really don't want to get into making suggestions for spark plugs. I don't have enough experience with what you guys are doing with all the different heads and tuneups to make an educated guess on an exact part number for you.
Here is the spark plug I'm in passionate love with. My darling.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/stage-ii-tech/347724-spark-plugs.html#post2789023
I looked at the sig of Phoneguy when I first started reading this thread. Some pretty good names in that sig. When I saw that projected nose plug, it made me think to myself, where the heck were these guys when the spark plug was picked out? I know if I had supplied an engine to a customer, he would have been asked about the type of usage (even before building the engine) and told what spark plug to start out with.
There are some major balls being dropped here.
There are some major balls being dropped here.
Phoneguy
Cometic HG stress tester
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
Here is the shot of the plug. What plug would you run in an aluminum GN1? This is an Autolite 103 that was recommended.
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I have chuckers
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2006
With my engine (109 with GN1, 212 roller etc) I ran the 103s and felt they were too cold. Switched to 104s and the car picked up 4 mph. I run 24*/22* with 23-25 psi on 93 and alky.
Cant wait to see what Don says about the pic.
BTW - sorry about the engine.
Don't the 103's have a cut back strap like don was saying? Or is That the autolite race plug? I use ngk r5671a-9's in mine with a .024 gap. But I don't run alky so not sure if the heat range would be good. The higher the number the colder the plug for ngk. Seven is hot and ten is cold. The r51672a is the projected plug but I've never used them. If you go to advanced auto (seems like they always have the ngk's in stock) make sure you put the "r" in front if the number or the bozo behind the PC will not know what to do. He will already be at a loss because his first question of what car is this for will not work lol.
RmvBfrFlght
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2007
14mm thread, .708" reach, taper seat, power tip (projected), resistor, copper core. It is a cold plug, although I'm not sure if it is a good idea running a taper seat on an aluminum head.
A .75" reach with a gasket seat may be better. I would definitely check the depth of the plug in the head before bolting them back on. That is, the front face of the threaded portion is even with the chamber surface.
RemoveBeforeFlight
At what point/HP is a non projected plug required?
An autolite 103 is a common plug used in a gn1 head running boost
In the mid 20s for boost and has been used for sometime without a
Failure related to it being a projected tip.
Think of the difference between a projected nose and a regular gap plug being similar to the basic heat range of the plug.
The basic heat range of the plug is primarily designed to clean the plug (porcelain) of deposits associated with burning gasoline. Keeping the porcelain clean detours fouling. Fouling presents another ground path for the secondary current other than what it should be doing which is jumping the spark plug gap.
Keeping the plug clean is a good thing.
The problem is, a high performance engine does not simply operate at one combustion temperature throughout its complete operating range. At idle are lower temps and at WOT are higher temps. The higher the performance of the engine, the higher the potential combustion temps at WOT.
A plug that keeps clean for idle and cruising situations will normally be too hot for a lot of WOT use. That's why many people will use one plug for the street and switch to a racing plug at the track. With a lot of WOT use and a cold plug, there is less chance of the plug fouling on you. When it's time to go home, switch back to the street plugs or just run the racing plugs until they foul, or the time is more convenient to switch them back. The racing plugs will be done if you wait to change them too long. With a gasoline engine, I would be using a fresh set of racing plugs at each event anyway.
Another one of the beauties of a projected nose plug is that the tip of the spark plug is placed deeper in the combustion chamber so that besides the other reasons I gave earlier for the projected nose plug, it also gets more combustion heat and will stay cleaner. Remember, clean is a good thing.
The problem with having the plug tip deeper into the combustion event is that it will also overheat easier when combustion temps are relatively higher at WOT.
Running plugs with a gasoline engine is a compromise. Do I try to prevent fouling, or do I want to prevent overheating the plug?
Look at it this way. You're at the beach sitting around a fire ring, roasting marshmellows on a coat hanger wire. If you keep the marshmellow just inside the edge of the fire ring, it will take a long time to roast that mellow. As you move the marshmellow deeper into the fire ring, the more heat the mellow picks up, and the faster it cooks. The same thing goes for anything that you plan on sticking further into the center of the combustion event.
The basic heat range of the plug is primarily designed to clean the plug (porcelain) of deposits associated with burning gasoline. Keeping the porcelain clean detours fouling. Fouling presents another ground path for the secondary current other than what it should be doing which is jumping the spark plug gap.
Keeping the plug clean is a good thing.
The problem is, a high performance engine does not simply operate at one combustion temperature throughout its complete operating range. At idle are lower temps and at WOT are higher temps. The higher the performance of the engine, the higher the potential combustion temps at WOT.
A plug that keeps clean for idle and cruising situations will normally be too hot for a lot of WOT use. That's why many people will use one plug for the street and switch to a racing plug at the track. With a lot of WOT use and a cold plug, there is less chance of the plug fouling on you. When it's time to go home, switch back to the street plugs or just run the racing plugs until they foul, or the time is more convenient to switch them back. The racing plugs will be done if you wait to change them too long. With a gasoline engine, I would be using a fresh set of racing plugs at each event anyway.
Another one of the beauties of a projected nose plug is that the tip of the spark plug is placed deeper in the combustion chamber so that besides the other reasons I gave earlier for the projected nose plug, it also gets more combustion heat and will stay cleaner. Remember, clean is a good thing.
The problem with having the plug tip deeper into the combustion event is that it will also overheat easier when combustion temps are relatively higher at WOT.
Running plugs with a gasoline engine is a compromise. Do I try to prevent fouling, or do I want to prevent overheating the plug?
Look at it this way. You're at the beach sitting around a fire ring, roasting marshmellows on a coat hanger wire. If you keep the marshmellow just inside the edge of the fire ring, it will take a long time to roast that mellow. As you move the marshmellow deeper into the fire ring, the more heat the mellow picks up, and the faster it cooks. The same thing goes for anything that you plan on sticking further into the center of the combustion event.
The question, do I use a projected or a regular gap plug?
If you take a look at any serious racing spark plug, what do you find?
You find a regular nose, and a cutback side electrode to one degree or another.
In more extreme cases, the ground electrode is done away with altogether. Retracted gap and surface discharge plugs are good examples of these types of plugs. The reason for using a surface discharge or retracted gap plug can be for a few reasons. Maybe you're using an extreme compression ratio and you just have no room in the combustion chamber to have anything sticking into it. The other, of course would be that you don't want anything sticking in the chamber to pick up heat and cause a tuning issue. You want to keep the marshmellow close to you and away from the heat.
If you take a look at any serious racing spark plug, what do you find?
You find a regular nose, and a cutback side electrode to one degree or another.
In more extreme cases, the ground electrode is done away with altogether. Retracted gap and surface discharge plugs are good examples of these types of plugs. The reason for using a surface discharge or retracted gap plug can be for a few reasons. Maybe you're using an extreme compression ratio and you just have no room in the combustion chamber to have anything sticking into it. The other, of course would be that you don't want anything sticking in the chamber to pick up heat and cause a tuning issue. You want to keep the marshmellow close to you and away from the heat.
But, when do you know when to start out with a regular nose vs. a projected nose?
Remember what I stated about regular nose plugs. They are SAFER.
Another way you can think of a regular nose plug vs a projected nose plug would be to think of a lean a/f mixture vs a rich a/f ratio at WOT. Which is safer, and which one should you start out your tuning with?
If you start out with a regular nose plug, what's the worst that can happen? A fouled plug. But if you start out at the opposite end of the scale, what do you get? (Please examine engine pics in this thread)
Remember what I stated about regular nose plugs. They are SAFER.
Another way you can think of a regular nose plug vs a projected nose plug would be to think of a lean a/f mixture vs a rich a/f ratio at WOT. Which is safer, and which one should you start out your tuning with?
If you start out with a regular nose plug, what's the worst that can happen? A fouled plug. But if you start out at the opposite end of the scale, what do you get? (Please examine engine pics in this thread)
If a manufacturer or tuner is recommending a projected nose plug, it's because the owner told the fellow the following:
"Well, it's my primary transportation everyday, and I only plan to take it to the track once or twice a year, if that. I also usually take it easy on the street. I only go to cruises every once and awhile, and maybe I'll go to the favorite street racing meetup spot once in a blue moon."
How many vendors have heard this story before? :biggrin:
You hear the same thing in the transmission industry. Believe me.
"Well, it's my primary transportation everyday, and I only plan to take it to the track once or twice a year, if that. I also usually take it easy on the street. I only go to cruises every once and awhile, and maybe I'll go to the favorite street racing meetup spot once in a blue moon."
How many vendors have heard this story before? :biggrin:
You hear the same thing in the transmission industry. Believe me.
Then you hear through the grapevine, "Oh yeah. That guys now playing with his chip, is installing a bigger turbo, and installed an alky injection kit." :frown: Good grief. Everyday driver. Right. I guess everyday is raceday.
Hey, I'm in with that.That's the plug I used to use. Very good for reading. If I were to go back to using that plug, the first thing I would do is cut back the ground electrode further. Keep an eagle eye on that ground electrode.
Good plug to start out with.
Thanks for the info i will try and take one out and snap a pic of it and let ya look at it. They have a few passes on them and a ton of street miles on them. hell this past weekend i drove the car like 340 miles. so they are seeing some abuse from all angles........
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