Bearing issues

[Mad_Trbo]

Ok I won't even begin to talk about my frustration.

I was listening to the motor it sounded kind of funny so I started looking for issues. I found a very small amount of brass like materials in the oil so I pulled the oil pan.

There I found small flakes no large amount, so the damage may be minimal. At any rate, I haven't taken the rod caps off because I can't figure out how to do it from under the car without damaging anything.

Attached is a photo of the second center cap and I am wondering what would cause this / crank walk. Not to mention this is a brand new motor with less than 2k in soft miles. Soft miles meaning nothing above 14 lbs. I did all of the assembly but purchased everything from a competent vendor. It looks like I did something wrong. Help appreicated, I'll report back once I get the rod caps off. Although I have never experienced a spun bearing, I have a feeling that may be my issue.

FYI the wear seen in the photo is on the side facing the rear of the car.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Other side of #2 Billet main

Here is the other side of the billet main.


Note end play was within spec.

 

[EightSecV6]

Ok I won't even begin to talk about my frustration.

I was listening to the motor it sounded kind of funny so I started looking for issues. I found a very small amount of brass like materials in the oil so I pulled the oil pan.

There I found small flakes no large amount, so the damage may be minimal. At any rate, I haven't taken the rod caps off because I can't figure out how to do it from under the car without damaging anything.

Attached is a photo of the second center cap and I am wondering what would cause this / crank walk. Not to mention this is a brand new motor with less than 2k in soft miles. Soft miles meaning nothing above 14 lbs. I did all of the assembly but purchased everything from a competent vendor. It looks like I did something wrong. Help appreicated, I'll report back once I get the rod caps off. Although I have never experienced a spun bearing, I have a feeling that may be my issue.

FYI the wear seen in the photo is on the side facing the rear of the car.

IMHO, it looks like the converter is damaged or incorrectly built. How much of a gap did you have between the conv and flywheel when you bolted it up?

 

[getchasum]

Look at the top thurst bearing also to see if the wear pattern looks the same as the bottom half of that shell. Could be that the crank was not indext prior to tighten of the main cap, that's if your lucky. BUT with a billet main cap & a thrust problem, I bet the problem is with the machine work in the fit of that cap.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Look at the top thurst bearing also to see if the wear pattern looks the same as the bottom half of that shell. Could be that the crank was not indext prior to tighten of the main cap, that's if your lucky. BUT with a billet main cap & a thrust problem, I bet the problem is with the machine work in the fit of that cap.

Ok so dumb question here, but how do you get the top half out with out droping the crank.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

IMHO, it looks like the converter is damaged or incorrectly built. How much of a gap did you have between the conv and flywheel when you bolted it up?

Could the flywheel be installed backwards, I do recall there being a slight gap. I bought the block and it was stated as ready to install turns out after I put the motor in the car I had an issue the plugs at the back of the block leaking. Took me forever to figure out this was my issue so I had to take the flywheel off to get to those plugs and I may have installed it backwards.

Is that possible ?

 

[Sleeper1987]

Ok so dumb question here, but how do you get the top half out with out droping the crank.

sometimes you can use a small flat blade screwdriver to carfully push the bearing out. done it many times id say if the lower half is like that so is the top. did you seat the thrust bearing? most people use a dead blow or rubber hammer to 'bump' the crank forward and back before checking thrust clearance.

 

[EightSecV6]

Could the flywheel be installed backwards, I do recall there being a slight gap. I bought the block and it was stated as ready to install turns out after I put the motor in the car I had an issue the plugs at the back of the block leaking. Took me forever to figure out this was my issue so I had to take the flywheel off to get to those plugs and I may have installed it backwards.

Is that possible ?

The bolt pattern wont align backwards.

 

[Mad_Trbo]

sometimes you can use a small flat blade screwdriver to carfully push the bearing out. done it many times id say if the lower half is like that so is the top. did you seat the thrust bearing? most people use a dead blow or rubber hammer to 'bump' the crank forward and back before checking thrust clearance.

I did seat the thrust bearing according to directions and everything checked out aferwards.


So does anyone have any ideas on what this means ultimately or how I should go about finding out what the problem is. I suppose I need to replace that main thrust bearing right? But before I do that I need to find out what the problem was.



Checked the flywheel it is installed properly as previously mentioned it can't go in the other way.

 

[Razor]

Thrust is damaged.

Cuases are cap misalignment or ****ed up converter.

I had an old Art Carr converter on one of my motors, it ballooned and pushed the crank forward.. taking out the thrust.

If your converter is not the issue, then its bad machine work/assembly. Either way, the tranny has to come down and TQ converter checked/replaced. You also need to check thrust surface on crank for any damage.. if there is the slightest.. motor has to come out. Bearing will come out, need to tap it around on the side without the key way.. as you tap it around.. you can also turn the crank.. dont use anything metallic as it can scratch the crank... plastic/brass/wooden/etc..

 

[Dabigguy]

I have heard that you can put a cotter key in the oiling hole, allowing the head to stick out just enough to contact the bearing and not the block, then rotate the crank until the bearing comes out.

 

[wiked87gn]

Also a restriction is lubrication IE (oil lines) will cause this kind of damage..

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Thrust is damaged.

Cuases are cap misalignment or ****ed up converter.

I had an old Art Carr converter on one of my motors, it ballooned and pushed the crank forward.. taking out the thrust.

If your converter is not the issue, then its bad machine work/assembly. Either way, the tranny has to come down and TQ converter checked/replaced. You also need to check thrust surface on crank for any damage.. if there is the slightest.. motor has to come out. Bearing will come out, need to tap it around on the side without the key way.. as you tap it around.. you can also turn the crank.. dont use anything metallic as it can scratch the crank... plastic/brass/wooden/etc..

How do you determine if the torque converter is bad. I have a pro torque which was purchased not more than a year ago. The car has spent more time down than up so I would have to say it doesn't have more than 3k in miles.

I will say I have noticed a clunk from the transmission on down shifts at times.

 

[ijames]

When you unbolt the converter from the flexplate you should be able to push the converter into the bellhousing about 3/16", so the converter can rotate freely and not touch the flexplate. [You should always be checking this and making sure nothing is binding up as you install the transmission, so you don't damage the pump or input shaft.] If you can't push the converter back at all, then either it has "ballooned", or swollen so that it is always pushing the crank into the thrust bearing (and causing damage like you have), or was made incorrectly to begin with, or was not correctly seated but this is unlikely since you were driving the car. If you can push it back into the bellhousing more than about 1/4-5/16" then it may not be fully engaging the tangs on whatever that tube is called that goes over the input shaft (sorry, brain fade ) and something will eventually round off and spin when it is not supposed to. Those are the rough clearances I was taught, but if they are off I hope some expert will correct me. Another possibility, but not very likely on a 200-4R (compared to a TH400), is a very restricted trans cooler or cooler line causing excessive back pressure which pushes the converter into the motor. The input shaft diameter, and thus the piston area, is pretty small on a 200-4R, and normal cooler line pressure is maybe 75-100 psi (in cooler line to the cooler, NOT the main line pressure inside the trans). On a 400 the input shaft is much bigger so the max pressure in the cooler lines has to be kept under about 50 psi, if I recall correctly.

 

[Razor]

Protorque wants to see between .125 and .375 of engagement of the TQ converter on the tranny pump. IOW you push converter all the way in.. then pull it out between .125 and .375.. the rest is made up with shims.

Also the hub on the converter must slide freely into the back of the crank.

This is why anti-ballooning plates are installed on TQ converters. So they dont balloon and tear out the thrust.

HTH

 

[Mad_Trbo]

Is this common knowledge? This kind of annoys me learning this information at this point, I can't blame anyone but myself. But I recall telling several people before purchasing that torque converter that I had no experience with auto tranny's and I aksed if there was anything special I needed to look for. I was told load a quart or so of fluid in the converter, bolt her up and run with the wolves.

So with the bell housing bolted up you need to be able to measure these movements. Now if the converter had ballooned as mentioned this would have pushed the crank forward right so the unusal wear would have been expected on the front side of the bearing. Meaning the thrust side facing the front of the motor. It looks like the thrust bearing was worn on the thrust side facing the back of the motor.

Can anyone tell me what seating that thrust bearing does, I know I did this but the question is did I do it properly. In other words did I use enough force, I used a rubber mallet which may not have exerted enough force on the crank. If I didn't seat it correctly some seemm to think this could be my issue. (EDIT) after going back to read the service manual it looks like the only purpose of seating the thrust bearings is so that both the top and bottom bearings line up together. Does this make sense to the board?

 

[Razor]

When you bought your TQ converter, it should have come with spacers.. thats why they were there.

Me too ran with wolves and messed up the pump on a prior tranny.. from improper engagement. Once you do aftermarket converters... you need to be on your game.. you decided to change a part from factory.. everybody assummes you know what your doing.. rite

Yes with tranny and converter attached... push the converter all the way torwards the tranny.. pull it out .250.. shim the rest of the space between it and the flexplate with washers/spacers.

HTH

 

[Razor]

Now if the converter had ballooned as mentioned this would have pushed the crank forward right so the unusal wear would have been expected on the front side of the bearing. Meaning the thrust side facing the front of the motor. It looks like the thrust bearing was worn on the thrust side facing the back of the motor.

The back of the thrust is what gets worn.. if you push the crank forward.. the back of the bearing is what gets zinged.. from excessive pressure and not enough lubrication.. not the front.. That is why proper clearances, machining of cranks, proper thrust bearing grooves, etc are needed to keep that cushion.

Once that cushion is killed.. there goes the thrust.

Lack of oil pressure, improper clearances, bad TQ converter, improper tranny pressures.. etc.. lots of things going on..

hth
PS.. nothing ever is common knowledge :redface:

 

[wickedtt]

How do you determine if the torque converter is bad. I have a pro torque which was purchased not more than a year ago. The car has spent more time down than up so I would have to say it doesn't have more than 3k in miles.

I will say I have noticed a clunk from the transmission on down shifts at times.

You say its a Pro-Torque converter which on 12 inch or the 10.5 ? Did you
buy it direct from them or used?

 

[Mad_Trbo]

The back of the thrust is what gets worn.. if you push the crank forward.. the back of the bearing is what gets zinged.. from excessive pressure and not enough lubrication.. not the front.. That is why proper clearances, machining of cranks, proper thrust bearing grooves, etc are needed to keep that cushion.

Once that cushion is killed.. there goes the thrust.

Lack of oil pressure, improper clearances, bad TQ converter, improper tranny pressures.. etc.. lots of things going on..

hth
PS.. nothing ever is common knowledge :redface:

I bought the torque converter brand new.

I am pretty sure I have good oil pressure, clearances were set by reputable builder. I need to figure out how to test the torque converter that is my only missing link. I know the tranny pressures were dead on, I hooked guage and tested in all gears and things fell within CK performances specs.

Again I have heard a clunking noise coming from the transmission at times when shifting. Literally a clunking noise.

What I would like to know is if it can be determined if the bearing wear occurred over time. Or did it happen all at once, what caused me to pull the pan was what I thought was a weird metalic sound coming from the pan. Like some sort of rod knocking, but I have yet to find anything that indicates a problem with the rods.

You wouldn't hear the results of that thrust bearing wearing like that would you?